Monday, 1 December 2008

pimped ...

One morning last January I dropped a friend off for a meeting at the university. I took a short cut on the way back through what at night has become a "red light" area. An area where prostitutes work the streets. I pass no moral judgement on this regarding the women.

At about ten o'clock in the morning there was a young woman standing on the kerb looking for business. It was freezing cold. She was dressed in jogging trousers and a thin top. She was hugging herself to try to keep warm. She was crying.

I imagine she needed the money to buy her first fix of the day. No doubt it was a man who had got her hooked on drugs to bring him in money and to give him power over her.

There are some very evil aspects of men's power over women that we should never forget.

Recently I was talking with a sub who had had a scene with a Dom where she had been paid a token amount as an intended humiliation - which she gets off on. But she became upset. She gave her submission and sexual use for free. That was central to what she did.

She also told me though of a sub friend of hers - a woman with a professional job - whose Dom sends her out to prostitute herself on the streets each weekend as part of her submission and his control over her. For me that seems to be getting too close to the Dom becoming the pimp. I have no time for pimps.

It is interesting too that for many subs being paid for sex is a "hard limit" but that for most of the escorts I know who are paid for sex that they would find the things most subs engage in as being quite beyond their own limits.

23 comments:

lotus said...

Another very thoughtful post. I knew a couple of friends in college who were "exotic dancers" and sometimes prostitutes, and I always had mixed emotions about their work even when I knew it was to pay for school.

I was jealous of their ability to make so much money in so little time when I was slaving away at a minimum wage job in a chemistry lab to make ends meet and get myself into grad school. Then the jealousy would get mixed in with arousal, admiration, disgust. I wasn't sure how I felt about being touched and fucked by complete strangers. It was both very exciting and terrible.

And, yes, the one girl with whom I shared my experiences within in the BDSM lifestyle seemed to have a similar reaction to my choices: arousal and disgust.

Anonymous said...

Sending your sub/slave out to service others is a complete betrayal of her trust and of the Masters obligation to protect her. She is exposed to a person with whom neither can be sure she will not be harmed through violence or disease. The master could construct a scenario to achieve something similar without exposing the sub/slave to danger.

bloodsweattears said...

This is a thought provoking post, but not all sex workers are drug addicted, tragic victims with low self esteem issues. Not all sex workers are temporarily "lowering" themselves just so they can pay for school to "better" themselves. I'm a sex worker - I perform live sex acts on cam for a price. Some of us enjoy what we do and are proud of it. The debate over it is not any different than when a vanilla person tells a kinky person that because they enjoy being tied up and beatten they are disgusting freaks.

Arousal AND disgust seems to be a running theme through the comments and I think that's funny because it's like "hey pot, meet kettle".

Rose

Pygar said...

There are some really interesting responses already. Thank you to you all.

First though I must emphasise that I do not equate all paid sex with the street scene. I link on the right to four escort blogs. They are all women I respect. Two of them I have met and think of as friends.

I have had paid sex with women - and suppose part of me is worried that any of them may have felt "disgust" at having sex with me. But that may have been the case.

Anonymous raises one of the points I was trying to highlight though - as to whether a Master should prostitute his sub - most especially if this might put her in danger. (Though is the issue not the same if she is shared but with no money changing hands?)

But also I was trying to ask why, if there is no danger involved, that this should be such a hard limit for many subs who may allow themselves to be humiliated in so many other ways. And why subs might feel disgust at the thought of this. Many escorts might feel disgust at what they perceive to be the humiliation of many subs. Most escorts like to feel that they are the ones in power in the paid relationship and only do what they feel comfortable with - and for a price.

But the paid sex scene and the BDSM scene are both thought of in a more than derogatory way by society at large.

However there can often be an antagonism between these groups that I fail to understand. I would have thought we would each have tried to be more understanding of the other - given society's negative, moralistic and often antagonistic view of each of the scenes.

xPx

lotus said...

Well, I think that is the point I was trying to make though I didn't articulate it enough. It's unfortunate that either group would look at the other in such a light. I was just admiting to my own reaction back in college which now seems terribly naive.

We could all use a little more compassion for each other on these journeys even when they seem foreign to us.

Alice said...

I think that it all depends on the dynamic in the relationship. I am not sure I would define it as a limit, but I think it might damage our relationship if he ever required it. Though I cannot imagine that happening. Others may have this as a kink or get off on it, similar to swinging or cuckholding.

My submission is exclusively for him. Our D/s relationship fosters an extreme sense of trust and intimacy between us. For my "services" to be sold or given to someone else would cheapen what we have. I would feel that he was de-valuing what I offer him.

As with everything else, it is personal preference. I think it is fine, as long as it's consensual.

Pygar said...

Thank you lotus. I assure you that your comments are very articulate!

It is helpful though to hear of your genuine reactions at that time - the mix of fascination and even arousal together with revulsion.

There must be times when escorts have to get over revulsion or disgust with a client - or at times over the job as a whole. When they are independent women though they can always turn down a client or leave the job. Sometimes a Master may ask something of his sub that she finds revolting but she does it to prove her submission to him.

I have been thinking more about your first comment and wondered if the disgust you mentioned was with having sex with strangers or with being paid for it?

In an earlier part of her journey into submission the sub I talked of asked her protector to arrange for her to be used by strangers. At a later time though she cannot cope with being paid for her use. For her it was clearly being paid that was the limit rather than having sex with strangers.

Thank you Alice. I can understand for many subs their commitment is to their Master. Their submission is exclusively for him. However there are masters who do lend out their subs or make them serve other men. There is a well known sub blogger who at the start of her journey was clear that it was a hard limit to be used by others. Since then though she has written of scenes where her Master has made her serve other men.

I have a view on this - but I am back then to my discussion on stretching limits!

May I ask Alice - would there be a difference between your Master requiring you to give your services to another man as opposed to being required to sell them?

xPx

Sarah said...

"I was jealous of their ability to make so much money in so little time when I was slaving away at a minimum wage job in a chemistry lab to make ends meet and get myself into grad school. Then the jealousy would get mixed in with arousal, admiration, disgust. I wasn't sure how I felt about being touched and fucked by complete strangers. It was both very exciting and terrible."

Lotus, my daughter is at college. She has a part-time job in a shop to help make ends meet as you did.

I would be distraught if I thought she even contemplated selling her precious precious body for money. There are some things you cannot put a price on.

I do this because I choose to. That is what sets me apart. Do not be jealous of your friends, they probably hated what they did. Most young college students who do any work within the sex industry are doing it for the money only and nothing else. It is not glamorous. It is hard work, and sometimes awful if you are not doing it of your own choosing, plus the knowledge of what you are doing will stay with you for the est of your life.

Sarah x

Pygar said...

Thank you Sarah for taking the time to comment here. It is helpful to the discussion to have a contribution from someone who does sell sex - thanks also to Rose for her perspective on sex-cam work.

I know another mother Sarah who was also an escort. Some years ago she discovered that her daughter was working in a massage parlour / brothel to get extra money for Christmas. She marched into the parlour and literally dragged her daughter out by her ear!

I think the fact that escorts would hate to see their daughters doing the job gives a powerful message.

Would readers who are Doms or subs be happy to see their daughters become subs and put themselves under the total control of a Dom?

xPx

Sir J said...

A couple of thoughts, to your last question I hope my children (I have two, one of each sex) choose do things they feel are right and make them happy. I work very hard at making sure their right and happy is their's not mine.

I have in the past rewarded my slave with gifts, are these not just payment in a different form yet in larger society this practise seems more acceptable. The Mistress as opposed to the prostitute.

I have also paid my slave cash as part of a prostitute scene which she finds very hot and sexy and requested. However she would never allow herself to be sold our loaned to another. Aside from permenant harm her only "hard limit"

Finally, many jobs are hard, dangerous and morally corrupt and many of these are done by people who wish their kids to do "better".

Pygar said...

Thank you Sir J for your thoughtful contribution.

Your example of the mistress as opposed to the prostitute is very interesting. There is maybe a fine line here that many "mistresses" like to feel they are firmly one one side of - but are they really?

I knew a sub too who found the fantasy of prostitution very arousing. On the Beau blog I even designed a pretend escort website for her!

The sub I described in the post though was paid sex only really in a fantasy context - but she still found it upsetting. I think it is part of her view of herself as a submissive is that sex is something she gives freely.

xPx

niadarkandlovely said...

Pygar,

This is an interesting post. I agree with you, the Dom who sends his sub out to be serviced by others, feels like a pimp to me.

The whole question of limits is tricky.

I have a friend who is not an escort who thinks blow jobs are absolutely disgusting,lol.

Now, if she knew I was an escort, she would freak, and probably not talk to me.

I would not even dare suggest BDSM to her, you know that.

Pygar said...

Thank you Nia :)

I remember you telling me of your reaction when a client suggested BDSM to you! I know I would not have dared!!!!

xPx

bloodsweattears said...

That is a very interesting question you asked. I have two kids, one of each sex and though I'm proud and happy to be working in the sex industry, I do not want this for my daughter. I agree with what Sarah said, my daughter's body is too precious to sell - even on cam and not in life like I do. It's a hard way of life because of the stigma and I want better for her.

As for the Dom/sub path - Of course we don't play or do anything obvious in front of them, but they'll grow up seeing me bend to their father's will and deferring to him so I'm not sure how much of an influence that will have on either of them. Being a Dom/Master or sub/slave is hard road too, but I would be happy for them if that's what eithr of them wanted and be supportive.

Rose

Eliot said...

I have fantasies of being paid for services, sexual and non-sexual. D (my Sir) and I have role-played on Yahoo Messenger and I got off on it. Would I actually go through with it in real life? I can't say. D and I would have to have long discussions about it first. I'd trust his judgment regarding men he'd sell me to, and if I had any reason to refuse, I'd let D know my concerns. If he insisted and I still wasn't comfortable, we'd separate.

"She also told me though of a sub friend of hers - a woman with a professional job - whose Dom sends her out to prostitute herself on the streets each weekend as part of her submission and his control over her. For me that seems to be getting too close to the Dom becoming the pimp. I have no time for pimps."

What if it's consensual and she loves being a prostitute? Is it still a bad thing? Granted, it's illegal, but is the Dom a "pimp" for doing it? If it's not consensual, she can leave. She always has that choice even if she agreed to no limits. And if she did agree on no limits, then perhaps she needs to rethink just what that can entail.

Alice said...

Pygar,

Yes, I think it would make a difference. Either one would be hard for me, but to be sold I think would be a hard limit.

My limits have been stretched, by mtself as much as J. He plants the seeds of thought in my mind, but I am the one who usually ends up asking to have my limits pushed. He would never require anything that he thought would be damaging to me, either emotionally or physically. In fact there have been things that I have asked for that he has questioned (due to my past abuse). It is his care and diligence that make me trust him and surrender to him.

That said, the topic of other men has been discussed, more as a fantasy than a possibiltiy. I think that my negative reaction surprised him. I do, however, find my desires changing and shifting everyday, so I am not sure what I may come to want. And though it is not my own desires that drive our play, he is careful when it comes to extremes. I cannot ever imagine my desires encompassing protitution. The exchange of money would make me feel my submission is worth less, not more.

Pygar said...

Thanks Rose for answering the question about your reaction if your own daughter was to engage in such areas. I think we all want the very best for our children.

Thanks Eliot for sharing your fantasy of being paid. I guess many may have a similar fantasy - but fantasy and reality can be very different. I suppose you are right about the sub who is instructed to work as a street prostitute at weekends. That is illegal in this country - and dangerous. I don't think a Dom should require a sub to do something that is illegal or dangerous - but there are those who want this kind of edge play - another future topic perhaps!

I do not know this woman but it is possible that she gets some kind of satisfaction or fulfilment from it.

Thank you Alice - I think you summed up the thoughts of my sub friend when you wrote,
"The exchange of money would make me feel my submission is worth less, not more.

xPx

selkie said...

I've always felt prostituion SHOULD be legalized - I'm talking health benefits, taxes, the whole she-bang - get rid of the friggin PIMPS that prey on human flesh and let the women/men who are actualy out there, profit from their OWN flesh. No matter what the reason, neither I nor anyone else has the right to tell an adult that she or he should or should not sell themselves - BUT, I can't stand human traffickers of any ilk.

And frankly, a Dom that would put his submissive in a position of potential danger - physically, emotionally or spiritually isn't much of a Dom in my mind. If being "used" is something they wish between them, then that is easily arranged, with the Dominant being cognizant of the individual who will be using his submissive, ensuring that the environment is safe, that the individual is "clean", that the submissive, in other words, is in good hands. It seems to be a lot of "wanna-be" Doms forget that this kind of dynamic is NOT just about what the submissive gives THEM but that in turn, they have a STRONG responsibility to protect, cherish and ensure the physical, emotional and spiritual health of the submissvie.

In that sense, even if the submissive thinks she or he WANTS the experience of prostitution, putting her into a dangerous situation would NOT be protecting her nor exercising good domly judgment!

Sorry, but someone who calls it a "task" is to my way of thinking - justifying the unjustifiable ... alogn the lines of those "doms" who exploit a submissive in other ways and say becuase they "want" it it is "ok".

Pygar said...

Thank you Selkie for expressing your strong views. They are well received here!

In the UK prostitution is legal. However, there is always a but ...

It gets very complicated and I hope I have the following correct. Soliciting for paid sex by prostitute or client is illegal. This mainly applies to the street scene. Controlling women for sex is illegal and brothels are illegal. So an independent escort working alone in her own premises or for outcalls is acting perfectly legally in the UK and her clients are also not breaking any laws. Many independent escorts do pay tax and National Insurance - and can claim condoms, etc against tax as working expenses.

But two women working from the same premises - which is safer - becomes a brothel and is illegal. Even having a receptionist could put that person at risk of being charged with controlling prostitution.

However there are "massage parlours" which are technically illegal which seem to be condoned by the authorities as long as they are discreet, drug-free and not using illegal immigrants or trafficked women. Recently though there have been some that have been raided and closed down which have been operating without incident for some time. So perhaps there is a change in the atmosphere.

Also the UK government has very recently published a bill to make it illegal to pay for sex with a trafficked woman. It is clear that trafficking of women is immoral and having sex with a woman against her will is already punishable as rape. However under the new law ignorance that the woman was trafficked would not be a defence for a client however much effort they had put into ensuring that was not the case. In effect they are trying to stamp out prostitution by making it illegal to pay for sex.

It is a difficult problem to solve - in how to protect women who genuinely have been trafficked against their will whilst protecting the rights of independent women to provide sexual services and for men to purchase them. As with Sir J's comment earlier about Mistresses - when does one cross the line on a date or a paid holiday or a relationship into having paid for sex?

There is also the difficulty of sorting out those women who have been trafficked against their will from those who are economic migrants wanting to make some quick money before returning home.

However we should never forget that those women who are trafficked against their will are really enslaved in a way that most D/s "slaves" can only imagine.

I may write a new post about edge play that I think may follow from your further comments about a sub being put in a position of danger and a Dom's responsibilities. However I am very persuaded by much that you have said.

Thank you again

xPx

bettenoir said...

I have never had an issue with a woman exchanging her body for money be it prostitution or dancing. I've actually often felt that it was the payer who was getting taken advantage of not the payee. It is her body after all and I have always seen the body as just a shell. It is not who we are, it merely contains us. But I have always had a problem with another controlling that decision, be it a man or woman. This hold true for both prostitutes and strippers, for me.

Maitre and I have spoken some about this subject. At one point he thought of pimping out my feet. There was an ad by a man who was willing to pay for some time alone with a woman's feet. BUT Maitre would be there, keeping me safe AND any money that exchanged hands would be split between us. The degree of split and so on we never really talked about it because we never followed through with the idea. But is this really pimping? I suppose. Or it could be seen as my paying him as my protector.

Is a master going to far if he sends his sub out to prostitute herself? I think that depends as to whether it is consensual on her part. If she is not dependent on him for her well being and is free to walk away from the relationship if she so chooses, then I say no. She is clearly at that point making her own decision. But if he has financial control over her, or has been emotionally abusive backing her into a corner of low self esteem and learned helplessness, then I say yes he has gone too far...but on many levels. The games Doms and subs play should always be consensual on all levels.

Pygar said...

Thank you Bettenoir for your thoughtful response. As a man who has paid for sex I know there have been times when I felt I was the one who was being exploited!

I'm still smiling at the thought of a man paying to spend time with your feet. Each to his own kink! I think though that the role of "protector" depending on the power relationship can transfer very quickly into a more controlling relationship. I am sure many pimps describe themselves as protectors of the women they control.

I think you analyse "consensuality" very well. This is a complex area that I am sure we will return to.

xPx

Morgan said...

A fascinating post Pygar, and even more fascinating discussion it has provoked. I don't have much to add, I just wanted to say i really appreciate the things you post about. It is much what my blog would be like, if I was as dedicated to it as you are to yours, and had the time.

Lots of love,
Morgan

Pygar said...

Thank you for your kind words Morgan.

xPx