Wednesday, 17 August 2011

punishment and domestic discipline

Yes - I know I said I wasn't going to write any more about punishment. I got tempted!!!

I was wondering about punishment and domestic discipline. Presumably in a domestic discipline relationship the sub should not enjoy the punishment - otherwise it would not help enforce the discipline. Some subs from relationships that they would not describe as domestic discipline have made similar points in comments on earlier posts.

But if the punishment is of a physical nature and the sub dislikes it - then is that getting close to abuse? yes - I know consent has been given as part of a relationship freely entered into. However there are relationships that clearly are abusive where the person abused does not remove herself from the relationship that she has freely entered into.

Intuitively I think we can all sense the difference. However I am still finding it hard to articulate the difference clearly and precisely.


Alice said...

I think... there are some physical punishments that I consider to be toeing the line between abuse and non-abuse, and there are even some that cross that line to me, period.

I honestly don't think it is something you can articulate well. I can't. I know for me, if that was the kind of relationship we had, I would certainly have limits and should those limits be crossed I would feel abused.

I think it largely depends on the person, their circumstances, and what exactly they have consented to, because every relationship is so very different.

Kitten said...

i think the hard part is making sure the punishment fits the misbehavior. If i was to update my journal a day late for example, Master would make me write lines, and possibly give me a short corrective spanking. He wouldn't cane me until my ass was raw, because it wouldn't be appropriate for such a small infraction, and would then border on abuse.
A Dom needs to make sure he keeps corrections in check. That is what keeps a sub truly obedient.

Sweet girl said...

Difference between dd punishment and abuse? Fear . I think the difference is fear. When it's abuse, the abusee walks round on eggshells always worrying of wrongdoing, always scared of being perceived to do something wrong -cause let's face it, in abusive relationships anything can be deemed wrong at any given time , it's not about set rules and expectations or understanding -it's about control (and lack thereof!). In ttwd it's not. It's about setting parameters of behaviour, to give (and get!) a sense of security and stability in the relationship and in one's life.

.....I think.

Pygar said...

Alice - I think you are right that when limits are crossed thoughtlessly or carelessly then it then becomes abuseive. I'm pleased though that it isnot just me who finds it hard to articulate.

I think Kitten too that you make an important point about ensuring the punishment fits the behaviour and is not out of proportion. I'm not sure though that I totally understand your final point about a Dom keeping his corrections in check keeping a sub truly obedient. Are you saying that it is the appropriateness of punishment that ensures obedience?

Thank you though Sweet Girl for your fascinating thoughts. Fear is the difference? I think you may be on to something. If a sub embraces the discipline given by her Dom then it is D/s - but if she fears it then it is abuse. I think you might have put your finger on it there. What do others think?

I agree to with your thoughtful comments about the creation of a sense of security and stability in ones relationship and life. That certainly does not sound like an abusive relationship. Thank you very much for your interesting response.

P xx

Alice said...

I totally agree with Sweet Girl, fear would be the difference. I had been trying to articulate something like that earlier but it was just coming out weird and hard to understand so I deleted that part of my comment.

Fear is absolutely the difference. The more I think on it the more I'm convinced. I think there are many other things that make up the difference too, but fear definitely helps draw that line.

Stormy said...

I have to partially disagree. I do fear punishment, but is a healthy fear of what's coming, and it can help deter distructive behaviors, etc. I do not fear HIM. I think that is the difference. I do not fear his INTENT, or his heart motivation. Abuse is in the intent to HARM. DD has an inherent intent to HELP. To help keep somebody safe, or to keep the marriage strong, or to help end conflict or a cold war or a harmful power struggle. Which does far more lasting damage than the spanking. I live a 24/7 DD relationship, and that is my two cents for what it's worth.

I also think that "deal breakers" have to be considered. For example, for some it's ok to have soap in their mouth for lying, or face slapped for sass. Those are on my list of dealbreakers, and I get to decide. In abuse, you don't get to decide. You just try to survive anything that comes along that they inflict on you.

I don't want to go into detail, but I know both dd and abuse. They are not the same. DD can, however, turn abusive in the wrong hands.

Sweet girl said...

Stormy: yes, it was indeed fear of the person i was referring to (well and the punishment too of course, since it is often unjust, but not as you do, if you see what i mean?)

lil said...

I don't think that physical punishment I dislike borders on abuse--the whole point of punishment is to discourage behavior right? If it was enjoyable, punishment wouldn't really be serving any purpose at all in my mind.

I think sweet girl makes a good point about fear, but for me the big difference is anger--I don't get punished when He's angry, maybe later, but never in that moment when He's seeing red so to speak.

Honestly, after dealing with a family member who seems to enter into one abusive relationship after another, I have come to believe that even those relationships are consensual. Consent is given by the choice to keep coming back for more abuse. Though I do realize that some women don't have anywhere to go or anyone to help them, which muddies those consent waters quite a bit.

kiwigirliegirl said...

I like erotic spanking, but i dont like punishment spanking. They both can hurt, they both can use the same implements, the same positions. The difference to me? Mindset. We have rules and if i break them then i get punished. I get a telling off, a lecture and a punishment. I know when i have done something wrong, its in his mood, his tone of voice, my guilt. An erotic spanking can be far more intense than a punishment one but because of the mood and feelings invloved in punishment, then the punishment spanking is much harder to take, but once its over with all is forgiven and forgotten - a feeling never to be underestimated.
But thats just me :)

kiwigirliegirl said...

and I think stormy makes some pretty good points too :) well said stormy :)

Pygar said...

Thank you all for the very personal comments. The discussion about fear has been very interesting and I may start a new post to develop it.

Thanks Stormy for sharing your thoughts given you have also had experience of abuse. Similarly to lil who has the sadness of seeing a family member caught in such relationships.

Where such relationships are consensual then as you say it definately "muddies the waters" in making a clar distinction.

lil's suggestion that the key element may not be fear but anger. Certainly if one fears another's anger then it is a very difficult situation.

But thanks again Alice and Sweet Girl for adding to your earlier comments and also to kiwigirl for your description of how punishment spankings are so different from erotic ones.

P xx

James said...

i have no fears so i would make a good canidate ..

wireless cameras said...

I believe it will make it more better to discipline that way.

Anonymous said...

"Presumably in a domestic discipline relationship the sub should not enjoy the punishment - otherwise it would not help enforce the discipline."

Maybe there's a distinction between punishment and sadomasochism. Punishment discourages future bad behavior, whereas S&M can use bad behavior as an occasion for inducing pain. So, punishment has to fit the crime, whereas that's beside the point in S&M. (Of course, there are elements of S&M and/or D&S in any domestic discipline relationship.)


Ultimately, a domestic discipline relationship is about service and obedience. Punishment should help the sub serve, obey, and satisfy. His or her pleasure and pain may be involved, but they are secondary.

Anonymous said...

I believe that with DD does NOT come one size fits all. That fact is proven to me every time I start a new relationship with a girl. I'm 36 & I've never been in another type of relationship except for DD, starting the young age of 18. Spankings have always been enough in my previous relationships until I met my current girlfriend.

She is by far the youngest I've ever dated. Energetic, confident, smart, and gorgeous. She never asked me how old I was. Once she found out I was actually 12 years older than her she already liked me too much. And I guess it helped that I do look a few years younger.

She comes from a tough elite athlete tom boyish background, raised with an athlete dad and brother. I tried spanking her once and she took it as a total joke and walked away. So I pretended it was a joke. I knew hand spanking wasn't gonna cut it for her, and it would just frustrate me. So I had to give myself some time to come up with a customized plan for her.

I don't like brats, and I enjoy loving more than discipline. She seems perfect for me.

Later on I broke another news to her, that I was into DD, and she said "Ok… cool. Are you gonna ask me to be your girlfriend or what?" So I knew I was in trouble then, I do really like her.

We were for a while vanilla until she broke a rule three times. That's where I grabbed her hair and laid a slap across her face, first form of discipline. Her eyes widened, she was shocked, and her heart beat was at its most for the next 30 minutes. A few days later, she bit me after she was told not to and I slapped her again. This time she was even more shocked and asked if the slaps were going to keep happening. And I said yes if she doesn't start listening they will keep happening. I was pretty convinced at the result. It was an immediate humbling effect.

She was at her best behavior and I could sense a decent appropriate fear for a while until she became comfortable with me again. In a few weeks she started playing with her phone in front of me, playing constant pranks, and cheating her way through things, especially talking back. I warned her a few times to not talk back and realized she'd lost the sense. Next time it happened I walked up to her and I could see her smiling fading as I got closer. She started walking away and I ordered her to stay where she is and she immediately obeyed. I gave her three good slaps and she was in tears. She was back in her best behavior within minutes from calming down.

The only other time I noticed such effect with her was when she was acting up in bed. I asked her to go get my belt and she started crying and begging me to do "anything else but the belt". She has never been spanked with a belt before but I believe the idea of it was frightening for her. So I gave her a first time rough and unlubed anal sex, which she screamed and cried her way through it, but no safe words were used. I'm convinced next time I ask for the belt I'll get the belt.

I believe in personalized treatment plan for all my girls. With her face slapping brings immediate humbling and a deep fear of disobeying, even though it's no where as painful as anal sex, belt spanking, or bare bottom spanking. I don't think I'll ever try bare bottom spanking unless it involves a belt since I know that touches a weak psych spot on her.

Her safety and making sure I don't damage anything along the way is my number 1 priority, always. Slaps and Anal sex were performed with full discretion. She has a healthy psych background and agrees to all terms of DD.

Pygar said...

Thank you Anonymous for your fascinating account of your relationship with your girlfriend. I have written elsewhere on here I think about how very powerful face slapping can be.

Good luck to you both.

- P