Yes - I know I said I wasn't going to write any more about punishment. I got tempted!!!
I was wondering about punishment and domestic discipline. Presumably in a domestic discipline relationship the sub should not enjoy the punishment - otherwise it would not help enforce the discipline. Some subs from relationships that they would not describe as domestic discipline have made similar points in comments on earlier posts.
But if the punishment is of a physical nature and the sub dislikes it - then is that getting close to abuse? yes - I know consent has been given as part of a relationship freely entered into. However there are relationships that clearly are abusive where the person abused does not remove herself from the relationship that she has freely entered into.
Intuitively I think we can all sense the difference. However I am still finding it hard to articulate the difference clearly and precisely.
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1 month ago
14 comments:
I think... there are some physical punishments that I consider to be toeing the line between abuse and non-abuse, and there are even some that cross that line to me, period.
I honestly don't think it is something you can articulate well. I can't. I know for me, if that was the kind of relationship we had, I would certainly have limits and should those limits be crossed I would feel abused.
I think it largely depends on the person, their circumstances, and what exactly they have consented to, because every relationship is so very different.
i think the hard part is making sure the punishment fits the misbehavior. If i was to update my journal a day late for example, Master would make me write lines, and possibly give me a short corrective spanking. He wouldn't cane me until my ass was raw, because it wouldn't be appropriate for such a small infraction, and would then border on abuse.
A Dom needs to make sure he keeps corrections in check. That is what keeps a sub truly obedient.
Difference between dd punishment and abuse? Fear . I think the difference is fear. When it's abuse, the abusee walks round on eggshells always worrying of wrongdoing, always scared of being perceived to do something wrong -cause let's face it, in abusive relationships anything can be deemed wrong at any given time , it's not about set rules and expectations or understanding -it's about control (and lack thereof!). In ttwd it's not. It's about setting parameters of behaviour, to give (and get!) a sense of security and stability in the relationship and in one's life.
.....I think.
Alice - I think you are right that when limits are crossed thoughtlessly or carelessly then it then becomes abuseive. I'm pleased though that it isnot just me who finds it hard to articulate.
I think Kitten too that you make an important point about ensuring the punishment fits the behaviour and is not out of proportion. I'm not sure though that I totally understand your final point about a Dom keeping his corrections in check keeping a sub truly obedient. Are you saying that it is the appropriateness of punishment that ensures obedience?
Thank you though Sweet Girl for your fascinating thoughts. Fear is the difference? I think you may be on to something. If a sub embraces the discipline given by her Dom then it is D/s - but if she fears it then it is abuse. I think you might have put your finger on it there. What do others think?
I agree to with your thoughtful comments about the creation of a sense of security and stability in ones relationship and life. That certainly does not sound like an abusive relationship. Thank you very much for your interesting response.
P xx
I totally agree with Sweet Girl, fear would be the difference. I had been trying to articulate something like that earlier but it was just coming out weird and hard to understand so I deleted that part of my comment.
Fear is absolutely the difference. The more I think on it the more I'm convinced. I think there are many other things that make up the difference too, but fear definitely helps draw that line.
I have to partially disagree. I do fear punishment, but is a healthy fear of what's coming, and it can help deter distructive behaviors, etc. I do not fear HIM. I think that is the difference. I do not fear his INTENT, or his heart motivation. Abuse is in the intent to HARM. DD has an inherent intent to HELP. To help keep somebody safe, or to keep the marriage strong, or to help end conflict or a cold war or a harmful power struggle. Which does far more lasting damage than the spanking. I live a 24/7 DD relationship, and that is my two cents for what it's worth.
I also think that "deal breakers" have to be considered. For example, for some it's ok to have soap in their mouth for lying, or face slapped for sass. Those are on my list of dealbreakers, and I get to decide. In abuse, you don't get to decide. You just try to survive anything that comes along that they inflict on you.
I don't want to go into detail, but I know both dd and abuse. They are not the same. DD can, however, turn abusive in the wrong hands.
Stormy: yes, it was indeed fear of the person i was referring to (well and the punishment too of course, since it is often unjust, but not as you do, if you see what i mean?)
I don't think that physical punishment I dislike borders on abuse--the whole point of punishment is to discourage behavior right? If it was enjoyable, punishment wouldn't really be serving any purpose at all in my mind.
I think sweet girl makes a good point about fear, but for me the big difference is anger--I don't get punished when He's angry, maybe later, but never in that moment when He's seeing red so to speak.
Honestly, after dealing with a family member who seems to enter into one abusive relationship after another, I have come to believe that even those relationships are consensual. Consent is given by the choice to keep coming back for more abuse. Though I do realize that some women don't have anywhere to go or anyone to help them, which muddies those consent waters quite a bit.
I like erotic spanking, but i dont like punishment spanking. They both can hurt, they both can use the same implements, the same positions. The difference to me? Mindset. We have rules and if i break them then i get punished. I get a telling off, a lecture and a punishment. I know when i have done something wrong, its in his mood, his tone of voice, my guilt. An erotic spanking can be far more intense than a punishment one but because of the mood and feelings invloved in punishment, then the punishment spanking is much harder to take, but once its over with all is forgiven and forgotten - a feeling never to be underestimated.
But thats just me :)
and I think stormy makes some pretty good points too :) well said stormy :)
Thank you all for the very personal comments. The discussion about fear has been very interesting and I may start a new post to develop it.
Thanks Stormy for sharing your thoughts given you have also had experience of abuse. Similarly to lil who has the sadness of seeing a family member caught in such relationships.
Where such relationships are consensual then as you say it definately "muddies the waters" in making a clar distinction.
lil's suggestion that the key element may not be fear but anger. Certainly if one fears another's anger then it is a very difficult situation.
But thanks again Alice and Sweet Girl for adding to your earlier comments and also to kiwigirl for your description of how punishment spankings are so different from erotic ones.
P xx
i have no fears so i would make a good canidate ..
I believe it will make it more better to discipline that way.
"Presumably in a domestic discipline relationship the sub should not enjoy the punishment - otherwise it would not help enforce the discipline."
Maybe there's a distinction between punishment and sadomasochism. Punishment discourages future bad behavior, whereas S&M can use bad behavior as an occasion for inducing pain. So, punishment has to fit the crime, whereas that's beside the point in S&M. (Of course, there are elements of S&M and/or D&S in any domestic discipline relationship.)
EB
Ultimately, a domestic discipline relationship is about service and obedience. Punishment should help the sub serve, obey, and satisfy. His or her pleasure and pain may be involved, but they are secondary.
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