Tuesday, 2 August 2011

punishment, D/s and BDSM

Forgive another (final?) post on this topic.

I do use "punishment" as part of a D/s relationship. However it is not with the intention of punishing as such. It is because I want to! There is something of the sadist in me. So it would really be part of BDSM play rather than a serious approach to training. I still believe that praise is more effective for that. Though punishment can be fun.

However I want it to be fun for both of us. Though perhaps then it is no longer punishment.

I recognise that punishment forms part of the D/s dynamic and may even help a sub to feel more controlled and submissive. I think that is its justifiable purpose in D/s rather than as a means of control. A true Dom would have no need of punishment in a trusting and loving D/s relationship to maintain control. However it could be fun!

So perhaps my use of punishment is much more related to my BDSM interests than the need to use it to enforce my dominance. I feel no such need.

Though I have twice felt a strong desire to punish a sub severely and painfully. Both occasions were at a time of break up. Each time I felt I had been badly treated and let down. It made me angry. On the most recent case I have even fantasised about beating the said sub. However if she came to me now to make up I would feel no real need to beat her. The anger has passed and in any case a Dom should not discipline a sub when angry.

Does any of this hang together? I guess I'm just a crazy mixed up Dom!

17 comments:

Alice said...

That's pretty much how punishment is used and understood in our relationship too. Chess wouldn't use it as a means of control really, and never has, and he also wants us both to enjoy it. He has certainly used it as a display of control, but not as a means to regain or enforce his control.

Normally he uses a balance of obvious and verbally displayed disappointment or pleasure with what I have or have not done. And really that works best for me.

Sweet girl said...

I'm sorry to keep coming back to this -but how can it be punishment if it is fun??
Hey, I love my sadist but it ain't got nothing with punishment to do. He's a Sadist all the time, not just occasionally (although sometimes He's a "nice-Sadist" and sometimes....well not as nice *LOL*).
So it's a part of our relationship, the sadism I mean. But punishment (for me) is about correction, not play. It doesn't have to be severe, like mentioned often displeasure and just the knowledge of disappointment makes us our own worst punisher.
For me play and punishment are on opposing sides of the spectra, I can't see how they can be one and the same.
That said, I do think that it should be more about praise than punishment -praise fuels the spark within us that want to please. Because that's what we subs do isn't it? We aim to please.

blossom said...

When one talks about punishment a sub tends to think she has done something wrong so it would be important to differeniate between play and punishment. If a sub is to be 'punished' then it should be in some form that will have the biggest impact on the sub, which doesn't necessarily involve pain of any sort. i feel what you have described in your other posts using 'praise' to keep the sub controlled and obedient works well, as she will always want to please the Dom.


i feel that the type of punishment you are talking about is play within D/s dynamics which if you enjoy then you should incorporate that into the relationship so that she may learn to enjoy this with you.

its hard to imagine that you felt so angry as to punish a sub severely, you must have been truly hurt, but remember subs have been truly hurt also but im sure have not felt the need to physically hurt anyone!!! is it a Dom thing?? Nor do i think you are a crazy, mixed up Dom...lol.

Pygar said...

Thank you Alice. I'm pleased someone understands!

You mention though how punishment can be used as a display of control rather than as control itself which I find a very interesting thought. Thank you for that and for your personal perspective.

Pygar said...

Please don't be sorry for coming back Sweet girl. I just wish I had the time to really think through the detailed responses that your comments deserve.

You are not the only sub to delight in the sadism of their Master - to revel in their own submission in a masochistic way. Perhaps we Doms seek such submissiveness.

But if you seek correction, if you need it - then perhaps it becomes almost like pleasure. For you play and punishment are at opposite sides of the spectrum. But where does one draw the line between the two?

As you say though - subs aim to please. So praise becomes appropriate. I hope you can come to accept praise as much as punishment.

Pygar said...

Thank you too blossom.

I can see as you say the need to differentiate between play and punishment so that the sub does not get confused. If a sub does something wrong then she expects a response from her Dom. Perhaps a punishment but certainly admonishment. It is part of her submission and being controlled. if her Dom took no notice then she might feel ignored - or that her actions were not considered by her Dom. The act of submission leads to an acceptance of a consequence when she has not performed appropriately.

As you say - she wants to please her Dom. If she doesn't then she will expect consequences to support her submission.

I know you are right blossom that many subs have been hurt much more than me but have not felt the need to react such a way as I described.

Is it "a Dom thing"? I'm not sure blossom. Perhaps not. A kind Dom should be in control of his emotions. An angry man wanting to beat someone for hurting him is certainly not kind - and perhaps also not a Dom.

Sweet girl said...

OK, P my friend THIS is when I come back -and this time with an admonishing finger pointed at you! I know, inappropriate and kinda ironic considering the subject! *LOL*
I hope you kow why, but i guess I'll tell you just in case.

1. "An angry man wanting to beat someone for hurting him is certainly not kind - and perhaps also not a Dom." You know what? It's not about being unkind or un-Domly -it's about being human - I have been there -and I'm no man and I'm certainly no Dom.
Everyone should be in control of their emotions -but it not humanly possible to never fail that ever in your life.

(*End of finger waving*)

2. "But if you seek correction, if you need it - then perhaps it becomes almost like pleasure." -no I would not say so -I'd more call it a necessary evil. And as said before; the wiping of the slate. But not pleasure, well in that case it would be the pleasure in knowing that your Dom knows that you know you did bad and that you did good for acknowledging that and took your punishment well to demonstrate that. (ok that got kinda messy :P)

3. "For you play and punishment are at opposite sides of the spectrum. But where does one draw the line between the two?"
- For me the line is quite clear; the first is for mutual pleasure, the latter contains only regret and redemption -and hopefully a lesson learned! Not actually through the punishment itself, that is just kind of the embodiment of the redemption and wiping of slate. On the plus side, a punishment can very much reflect just how much of a misdemeanor you've commited and thus the amount of disappointment you have caused.

4. You know what? I'm actually getting there, I'm learning to take praise -and actually take it to heart. Don't always succeed, but I'm getting better at it.


OK, rant over.

*looks sheepish*

xxx

Anonymous said...

I believe that you have it completely correct.

Alice said...

I've loved reading your thoughts on punishment. It's helped me to give it thought of my own and really understand the place that punishment has in my relationship with Chess.

I perhaps the key to punishment being able to be fun/or enjoyable is in the fact that it's not needed by either the Dom or sub, but is given simply because the Dom has decided he wants to give it. With Chess the "real" punishment is in the admonishment/lecture, and the "punishment" is just as Pygar said, because he wants to. It's purpose isn't correction, correction has already been given.

Does that make sense?

I do think for some people punishment needs to be correction with no element of fun at all. But for others not so much.

Sweet girl said...

But Alice, isn't that what usually is called maintenance? (Or reminders/reaffirmations etc).

Of course everyone can call it whatever they want -I'm not trying to say otherwise, or push my way of thinking on someone else -I just don't understand the thinking behind pleasure/punishment. I mean the very definition of punishment is:

Collins
World English Dictionary
punishment (ˈpʌnɪʃmənt)

— n
1. a penalty or sanction given for any crime or offence
2. the act of punishing or state of being punished
3. informal rough treatment
4. psychol any aversive stimulus administered to an organism as part of trainingpunishment [puhn-ish-muhnt]
1. a penalty or sanction given for any crime or offence
2. the act of punishing or state of being punished
3. informal rough treatment
4. psychol any aversive stimulus administered to an organism as part of training

Encyclopedia Brittanica
punishment

the infliction of some kind of pain or loss upon a person for a misdeed (i.e., the transgression of a law or command). Punishment may take forms ranging from capital punishment, flogging, forced labour, and mutilation of the body to imprisonment and fines. Deferred punishments consist of penalties that are imposed only if an offense is repeated within a specified time.

How can you work pleasure into that?
But reminders/maintenance spankings etc. are discussed in a lot of blogs just now, for ex.

http://stormy-shelterinthestorm.blogspot.com/

http://findingsara.wordpress.com/2011/07/24/some-thoughts-on-how-and-why-maintenance-spanking-works/

Again, people can call what they do whatever they like, I just want to sort out the concepts -especially for myself!

Sweet girl said...

sorry Alice forgot to add that I completely agree with your first comment though!

Alice said...

Sweet girl, I guess it could be kind of considered maintenance... I don't really see it that way in our relationship because although it isn't used as correction, it still always comes in response to something I did wrong so I can't call it a "good girl" and calling it maintenance seems wrong too. Maybe there is no real label for it, or good way to describe it. I call it punishment because that is how I understand it.

My understanding of maintenance is that it is done not in response to any misdeed, it is done rather regularly even if not often, and it is done to help maintain a good attitude/action/etc. That's not really what we do.

nancy said...

Pygar, Your thoughts on punishment are pretty much the way things are with Sir and me.
I've been punished for not cutting the watermelon into bite sized pieces.. shameful!
I've been punished for getting turned on by a fantasy Sir whispered in my ear as we sat in a bar.. oh what a good excuse to spank me.

He has no need to punish me in anything other than a playful way. Of course Sir never sounds playful, just the opposite.

His tone of voice is scary and his eyes turn cold blue .. I shiver just to remember.. but the punishments are fun.. for both of us.
I wouldn't dream of doing something he really really didn't like... why would I? He is my everything and I cherish him.

It works for us. To each their own!

Stormy said...

Sorry I don't really fit like a puzzle piece but I'll add my two cents. We don't do punishment as play, and I certainly don't enjoy it. I don't like it when he spanks me so it's very effective to help me stay in my submissive role.

Sometimes it's more of a wake up call and sometimes it's more severe. It depends on what I have done. If I am stubborn and I fuss or fight then of course it's always going to be pretty intense.

Some people like marks on their body but I do not. I am eager for them to fade because it's a reminder that he punished me and that I failed at obedience.


I hate it but I do like feeling that "headspace" of surrender and submission. He comforts me and helps me deal wi th all the emotions that come with it.

This is how it works with us.

Lady Xanax said...

Punishment is part of our D/s relationship. My hussy is very aware if she fails a specific instruction that she will be punished. She is the type of person who NEEDS to know the slate is wiped clean. Punishment is not necessarily physical though. Often it is verbal, an admonishment or writing lines. Or standing on her naughty step, in the corner. Sometimes a spanking is deserved. She knows this, accepts it and I feel, needs it. Afterwards, whatever and however the punishment is given, I hold her and tell her she is forgiven, that it is forgotten and we move on.

I do spank as part of play but it is very, very different. She has grown to love it and even though it hurts, she begs for more. Punishment is short, swift and painful emotionally and physically. I laid my ground rules from the beginning and she understands why it's part of us. The most important thing about punishment is that it enforces what is expected of her. She strives to attain that and is always praised and rewarded for her efforts. The flip side is when she errs. It's all about keeping what is important uppermost in her mind. Me.

Pygar said...

Thank you very much anonymous. Do visit again with your excellent thoughts!!!

You are forgiven Sweet Girl for your finger waving - if only because you are right! Thanks!!!

Thank you too Sweet Girl and Alice for generating a very interesting discussion.

Yes nancy - your Dom seems to have the same wicked sense of humour and attitude to punishment as I do. I'm pleased it works so well for you.

Thank you too stormy for giving a very different perspective. it is one that I think many subs would share.

Thanks Lady Xanax for your Domme perspective. I think there are perhaps many subs who enjoy the "wiping the slate clean" function of punishment.

Thank you all again for your contributions. It has been a fascinating discussion.

P xx

Anonymous said...

I am new to the hole life style, but my master and i are haven a hard time understanding what would work best with training me. I do become a brat just so i can get slap and i injoy it. but when im behaved and he dos it. i dont like it as much. He dos like me being a brat AT times. He said he never wants to hurt my feelings tho but im thinking thats the ways its goin to have to be. when he makes me cry with slaping, i love it. its not the norm bdsm but its worken for us even tho our age gap.