Tuesday, 1 May 2012

submission, feminism and equality

The previous post I wrote on this here has  generated some very interesting comments. If you have not read the comments then I recommend you do have a look.

Meanwhile I have been exchanging a few messages with waterfall whose initial message to me stimulated me to write the post.

She wrote that
"Whilst i consider my own submission to be given through bravery and strength rather than by fear or capitulation my point is that surely, by its very nature, an M/s relationship is not an equal one?"
My reply was,
"I think that for many their submission is given through "strength and bravery". I often say that one has to be strong to be a sub. As you say you have not capitulated through fear. You have a position of strength within the relationship - that strength enabling you to submit to the will and control of another.

Perhaps this does not imply inequality. Rather a relationship of equals where each takes on different roles for the pleasure and fulfilment of the other.

Surely too a sub has a right to certain expectations of their Dom. These might include being respected, cared for, being kept safe, loved even. Perhaps this is a fair exchange for the submission given in return. Can this not still be a relationship of equals? Each benefiting equally from the relationship in different ways?

That is not to say that within the dynamic of the relationship rights and control are freely given by one to the other. However they are given on the expectation of care and a meeting of the submissive needs of the other.

While this may seem an unequal relationship from the outside I believe that it can and in many cases is a relationships of equals. Does it not have to be for it to work properly - for it to be use and not abuse by one of the other?

Or perhaps I am arguing the point too strongly!

I doubt I have persuaded you!!!!"
So can a D/s relationship be a relationship of equals?


Pygar said...

By chance AnnWren wrote a comment here about equality - and also about rights. It seems very relevant to what I have written above.

- P

Anonymous said...

Dear and Kind Dom,

For me the equality lays in the Yin and Yang of the relationship. I submit willingly and that is the only way I submit, I want to submit or need to submit. I can not be forced to do so. I can walk away whenever I want to. I am not held hostage. I give Him the right to rule over me within the lifestyle. But He can only rule by considering the things we share, looking after my full personality, my intelligence, my wants and needs. His will and my willingness.

love ara

Pygar said...

Thank you ara. I think you describe the equality of the relationship beautifully.

P xx

Pygar said...

My delightfully salacious and loving submissive woman wrote to me after reading the last two posts. She wrote,
"I love being your submissive woman. In no sense whatever do I feel it undermines my strength or power or - most importantly perhaps - self-esteem. Self-worth. It's not my worth that becomes subservient to yours. It's not my status that becomes secondary to yours. I am simply, deeply grateful to have found someone I can trust enough to completely give myself (my power, my control) away to. "

I just wanted to include here her own personal reflections in terms of our relationship.

P xx

Pygar said...

AnnWren has made another very interesting comment relating to submission, equality and rights here.

P xx

Word said...

My first thought was, "Of Course!" and "Well Duh!" and then I thought about the dynamics of my relationship with Wolf. We are equals in every day life, and we choose how we play, whether it is a D/s kinda day or not. So, for us it is a dynamic of equals. It is that very equality, my give to his take and visa versa that makes it work.

This brought me to thinking about power dynamics and how they work on a wider level. Yes, there are D/s relationships that are like ours. Others are not so balanced, and what I suspect is that 'image' that we often see in porn or 'bad theater', is not about equality or even good relationships. Therefore, what we judge things by may in fact be biased.

One of the first things I understood was that it is the sub who is really in control. Subs have safe words that can stop a scene in a second. Also, if it were not the sub 'in control', there would be no issues with 'topping from the bottom' or Sams. It is about the dynamic of giving up control and taking that control which must have balance between the Dom and the sub.

As for which side is more powerful, I'm not sure. What I do find interesting is that the power dynamic isn't just between the Dom and the sub, but occurs internally within the Dom and the sub. If you haven't already seen it, find and watch the Secretary. Here is the IMDB link. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0274812/ A very interesting movie, and it explores what we've been talking about here.

Pygar said...

Thank you Word. This is a really thoughtful contribution. It has given me ideas for future posts which is always welcome!

I love your take on the power dynamic and will think some more about what you have written.

Yes - "Secretary" is a great film and raises some interesting issues.

P xx

Word said...

You're welcome, Pygar.

Always glad to feed the 'little grey cells'. :)

I love the last bit of the Secretary where she puts the bug in their bed. :)

Anonymous said...

The sub is truly not in control.... At least with Penelope St Devi.... The sub is NEVER in control.... You try and top from the bottom and She reaches through the computer and grabs your balls and squeezes them until you submit to her..... Penelope St Devi... Master of males...

Anonymous said...

I totally agree about each person personifying different roles. I agree as well that there has to be a relationship of equals for each other to really respect the roles of the other.

Honestly, I do not have a blog here yet, because I am new to the site.Not new to ideas & experience, just new to this place.

I must admit to feeling like I need to be anonymous. Mostly because I feel I have much I can contribute,but people do not always take me seriously. I am thinking of changing my overall user-name that is associated with some of my past writings. My user-name has, in many ways jaded me.

So, maybe that's why I'm posting as anonymous for now. Maybe at some point, I will feel the courage to build my own blog, though I'm not entirely sure I'd have much to say that would make sense to other readers.

I do try to participate as to be an active poster, and I try to consider the audience too.

Anyway, back to the point, I do feel like many of the views here do coincide with my own at times, except what the last anonymous person posted about the sub never being in control...if the sub were never in control then she'd run ragged in chaos right? I think ara's use of Yin & Yang fits in really well with this topic.