Monday, 15 June 2009

being lent to a stranger

The novel "The Story of O" starts with O being taken to a place where she will be used by strangers. It is a fantasy held by many perhaps and for most it will always remain just that.

toy wrote in her blog recently of being lent to a friend of her Owners. You can read it here: my Owner's friend. For the moment it is a fantasy or a threat. I guess though she is prepared for it to happen and would acquiesce as she is such delightfully obedient slut to her Owner.

First I should make something very clear. I do not normally discuss individuals here. I am interested in the discussion of ideas not of personalities. So what follows is not intended in an sense as any criticism of toy or of her Owner. I have known toy online for a long time. I regard her as an online friend. We have even played strip scrabble together online! (She beat me!) So my comment on her blog was spurred by my friendship rather than any negative thoughts.

It did make me think abut the principle of lending out a sub. I can imagine that frisson of fear and anticipation going through a sub if that was hinted at. I have remembered I once lent a sub to stranger - but in a very different way. This was a couple of years or so ago. I was going away for a long while and knew I would not be able to maintain regular contact with my online sub of that time for quite a few weeks. She was going through a difficult time and would miss my support. So I told her I was going to lend her out. I actually did so but it was to a female sub friend who we both knew. She managed to maintain giving my sub that helpful support while I was away - so there was no abuse involved in that - other than, possibly, the fright my sub had when I told her she was to be lent out!

Let us though get back to the scenario of a sub being lent to a stranger for his use.

A sub could refuse, walk away from it and even the relationship if necessary. To that extent it is consensual.

But if it is being done purely to please her Master - then is the act truly consensual? I have my concerns about the morality of this and the emotional security of the sub.

I hope I am not being "holier than though" about this for I have been involved myself in a similar situation. I was the "other man". I was given a woman to use for the afternoon. In that situation though it was the woman who wanted to be used by strangers. It was part of a journey of submission and humiliation that she craved for herself and was organised carefully by a Master and Protector.

I ensured first that the woman was totally happy with the arrangement. I hugged her at the start and made it clear she could leave then or at any time. I tried to make her feel safe. We had a good time and later she wrote of it in her online journal making it clear she had enjoyed it. I quoted it on my own blog then. She has become a friend and we correspond and meet occasionally.

So these things can work out well.

However the situations are slightly different. I was engaged in an activity that she had requested. That she wanted. It wasn't something that she did not want and was only enduring through pressure from her Master. As a responsible man I could not have "used" her if it had not been her wish - because she wanted it, not because she wanted to please her Master. If it had just been to please her Master I would have felt I was an abuser or even a rapist.

So I worry not just about an instruction to serve a stranger which may be designed to test loyalty and levels of submission but also about the position of the other man who may be prepared to abuse the sub with no questions asked.

For if it happens in the real world - not a blog fantasy - then is that not close to rape?


mouse said...

My first Master [Alpha] lent me out quite often to other men (for example my current Master [Omega] was given full rights to use me whenever he wished, even outside the presence of Alpha Master). Most of the time he was there, supervising what went on to some degree.

I believe it was completely consensual, however as a 'slave' I didn't exactly have the right to refuse either. I believed that Alpha Master would keep me safe. There was one instance where there was, I believe, a group of men that were allowed to use me but I was hooded at the time and had no idea who. Nor do I know how many were involved (I could clearly hear voices and counted 5). I didn't know there would be multiple men, I didn't know I would be hooded...I don't know what to think about it even today. My thoughts aren't warm and fuzzy over that incident. I also wouldn't call it out right rape either--I guess my thoughts lay somewhere in the middle. I've been raped and those feelings were totally different. However, I do have many issues that I've had to deal with over the years and my views toward Alpha have changed dramatically for the worse.

The biggest problem for me was dealing with Omega when he had use of me. It was hard for me to separate my feelings or emotions that I had begun to have for him. I've written in my blog that he would bring me to orgasm and I would be punished later by Alpha for having orgasms. It didn't help matters at all that I was physically attracted to Omega either. I also began to look to him as more of a "protector" than I should have--because often it seemed to me that he would rescue me--I've said that Alpha Master was abusive in your blog before as well as my own. It led to some nasty passive aggressive treatment of Omega later on especially following Alpha's death.

selkie said...

well, your post precipitated by own rant (long overdue) about my feelings about Story of O LOL- BUT to the subject at hand.

Like anything else in any relationship I do not think it possible to generalize.

If it were ME it would have to be very clear at the outset that that was in the equation and there would subsequently be NO relationsihp LOL - I don't find the idea of being "lent" in the least provocative or intriguing - and I am by nature, monogomous so there you are!

However, each to their own! There are lots of individuals out there that are totally fine with it- and in that sense, I would think it the Master's ABSOLUTE responsibilty to ensure that it is CRYSTAL clear about the rules regarding the "lend" - i.e. what her limits are, the time element involved, who can use her etc - and he bloody BETTER be 100% certain of the person to whom he is lending his precious submissive!

I would assume there is an element out there that get off on what they see as the "cachet" of having a woman they can pass around at will - after all, those elements are everywhere ... which is where the issues would arise. If the submissive is conned into thinking she is submitting to a "master" who is in reality a "player" then she is placing herself in a potentially very serious and possibily dangerous position.

So Rule 1 for me would be it is deliniated clearly to the submissive in the dynamic what the master's expectations are and whether they include occasionaly 'lending' her out.

Rule 2 - the Master must be intimately and 100% clear about the limitations and rules and acquaint the 'borrower' with safewords etc.

Rule 3 - the Master MUST be 100% CERTAIN that he is placing her in a safe place.

just my thoughts!

cutesypah said...

my fantasy, and one that Daddy is willing to indulge is my being the prize in a card game. I've always wanted my Master, or now, Daddy to play cards with three other Dominants, and to be the prize for the winning hand, to be dealt with as the winning Dominant sees fit, then and there, in the presence of all.

Daddy is a prize-winning poker player, but it would be very fun to see him lose, maybe just once.

Cards, anyone?

Pygar said...

Thank you renea for your very personal observations. You have said that when being lent out to other men it was completely consensual ... but I wonder about the occasion when you were hooded and did not know before about it or how many men it would be ... can that be desctibed as completely consensual?

I suppose if in advance a couple know that the sub gets off on being used in such a way then it is completely consensual even if she may not know in advance about the individual episode. It becomes more like the case I was involved in then I guess.

Thank you too selkie for your detailed thoughts. I think the structure of rules that you have constructed seem very sound. However I wonder if there should be something within it that includes that the sub gets some fulfilment and satisfaction from this kind of play. Otherwise I think it becomes quite risky edge play for everyone concerned.

I'm also pleased to have stimulated an interesting discussion on your own blog!

Now then Cutesy pah - what fun, a poker game with you as the prize! But you say he is an expert at poker yet I am a novice I am afraid. How is he at chess?

But if it were really to happen ... and he did lose ... and you were fearful of the winner ... what then?


Pygar said...

Cutesy pah's comment about poker reminded me of a picture I published on beau a long time ago. You can find it here.

cutesypah said...

well, to answer your question, I would have nothing to be frightened of, as Daddy would have taken care of everything. The rules would have been discussed by all the Doms before the game began, and all Doms' concerns would have addressed, and all would have been assured by Daddy that this was with my consent.

Daddy would be present, of course, so in reality, I'm as safe as a babe swaddled in a crib.

Would I be frightened? Absolutely! It's a mind f**k, no doubt! But, would I have concern for my safety? Never! And, I know that because Daddy is present, everyone would also know my safe word, which I could use if the scene became too much for me to handle.

And, I'm guessing that Daddy would have even given the Doms some "inside" information as to insure that I truly "enjoyed" being their prize.

As for chess, nah...he plays that too.

I believe, to make me happy, to make him happy, and to turn us both on immensely, he'd probably even "lose" on purpose. I mean, seriously, I'm his prize to enjoy all the time!

So, who's in?

Pygar said...

You seem to have all the angles covered cutesy pah! Have fun!!!!!


Tristan said...

I remember watching "Emannuelle" being ofered as a prize at a kickboxing match. Very hot.

I remember "The story of O" as a luxuriously debauched fantasy. Very hot.

I've discussed this from time to time with the pet. I know it's just mind-fucking but she always gets excited at being used, no matter how I choose to use her.

To lend her out would require two things: Strict rules and a certain degree of trust. Not from or for the pet, her lot has been drawn, but from the Dom taking her.

Yet, I'd be much more likely to lend a power tool than her and trust me, I don't like loaning my stuff out.

I might have her perform for a friend, a display of her abilities with me present, guiding and instructing her. I'm too possessive to just hand her over. She was too long coming into my life to let some omega sweet talk her away from me. :)

But public displays are, I admit, just a brag, so it would have to be a special event.

As for is it rape if the sub is not consulted? Yes and no. In the context of our world, she has no say in what the dom chooses to do. If she can't live with his actions she can leave, there's always that as hard as that can be.

But a sub is not in control, and must accept that the dom that they have submitted to is behaving in a way that makes them feel empowered. If they can get no pleasure, can find no way to see that being loaned to another gives the ddom a sense of pride and power, no way to accept that being "on loan" is a way to serve the master, then the dom has made a mistake and the term "rape" may well apply.

Tristan said...

more on that...

it's true that some doms will notfall in love with the subs. they collect them and use them, then discard them.

It's sad but true. If the sub is not considered a favoured possession, then a loan is simply a way of enforcing the position of the sub: at the bottom, a set of holes to be used for pleassure and then cast off.

If the sub is trapped in that world, then the only good thing I can think of is that eventually the dom will just give her away and hopefully the new owner will be more appreciative.

cutesypah said...

I'm writing this in response to Tristan's comments. I don't know Tristan, or his pet, but his opinion evoked such discomfort for me, that I felt the need to respond.

The sub must ALWAYS give consent, slave or sub. she always has the choice to leave or stay, to submit or not.

This is SO important, particularly in this situation, where a stranger is involved.

The consent and trust is built between the Dom and sub, no one else. When you put a stranger into the equation, the trust and consent doesn't change, it still remains between the Dom and sub.

It's the Dom's responsibility to ensure that the trust between them is not damaged. It's the sub's responsibility to insure that she makes clear her consent, or lack thereof, at all times. If she at any time wishes to draw her consent, she must make that known.

And, it is the Dom's responsibility to insure that the sub understands that her withdrawal of her consent will not damage the trust between them, or damage the relationship. A sub should NEVER be punished nor should she be blamed in any way for anything if she withdraws her consent.

ime, that's the purpose and power of safe words. It is only when trust is strong that safe words have their full power.

And, make no mistake, I'm Daddy's ultimate and exclusive possession. This is my fantasy, not his.

It is our agreement that no one will ever lay a hand on me sexually unless he is right there, and no one will ever lay a hand on him sexually unless I am there.
This what I "need" in order to trust and give consent to bringing another into the equation.

The excitement for us comes from the knowledge that we trust each other enough to consent to bring strangers into our sex lives, yet know that we always are first to each other in our hearts.

The strangers are OUR playtoys, to use to our benefit. this is OUR game, not the stranger's.


Tristan said...

really? Discomfort? I said only that I would not lend her out. I'm too fond of her, you see, to let anyone else have her.

My concern, if perhaps not well expressed, is that some subs are not afforded any consideration. If they are considered meat, then it's likely they will be abused.

I love my pet, she's not a bit of meat, she's a person who over time has come to trust that I won't be abusive.

Nope, too jealous to lend her out. She's mine. If ever another person is involved, I will certainly be standing right there.

Tristan said...

Ah! I see my mistake, it was the line, "her lot has been drawn". Yes that was poorly said.

Let me assure you, her needs and limits are well known to me. We have settled on a system based on our mutual agreement of what can and won't ever be done. We spend a lot of time talking and I do listen ....and take notes.

oatmeal girl said...

Pygar, thank you for kicking off this discussion. The sadist has been declaring his plans for me, adding details as we go, and I'm not really sure how much is a mindfuck and how much for real. I have finally indicated that I have some measure of discomfort with the scenario he has been concocting over time, involving a number of doubtful characters in a storage room over a "biker/thug" bar, and it boils down to two things: 1) there sure as hell better be condoms, and I'm a bit worried about what effect it might have on my mental state.

The thing is, it all fits in with fantasies of my own, tho in a safer environment in a way than my fantasies, because he would be there and watching. but there's the uneasiness... so the other night I included this in a message, and have not yet had a response to my concerns.

Then again, he was particularly and uncharacteristically sweet and gentle and almost loving when he paid me a visit Wednesday, and i wonder whether he isn't trying to seduce me into cooperating with what seems to be a dear and long-held fantasy on his part. he has learned in the past that there's no good to come of it if he moves me along to quickly.

We'll see...

Pygar said...

I'm afraid I am away from home for a few days and with limitted internet access - so only time for a few snatched words. I will try to respond properly next week.

I'm just fascinated by the recent exchange. Thank you all.

And ... take care oatmeal girl and good luck.


Pygar said...

I'm sorry that my previous comment was necessarily very short. Thank you Tristan and cutesy pay for your fascinating discussion - I've just read it through again a couple of times.

In the end I think it comes down to much the same as has perhaps been discussed in other posts about limits and safe words and edge play. It is about consent and trust and respect for the sub's needs and safety. I know that Tristan has that in full for his pet - that she is loved, cared for and safe. But I was also discomforted at first by some of the words - but I think I misread them - ultimately he is making it clear that the sub has the right to walk away and if she is not getting anything from the scenario then the Dom has miscalculated.

I do agree strongly with most of what cutesy pah had to say. In particular I think the paragraphs about responsibility and consent are fundamental.

I think cutesy pah that you sum it up perfectly ...

"The strangers are OUR playtoys, to use to our benefit. this is OUR game, not the stranger's."


Pygar said...

Thank you oatmeal girl for giving us your very real perspective. To hear from a sub who is in anticipation of such a scenario about her thoughts and feelings is fascinating - and a little scary!

I am sure that you will have made your limits very clear to him in relation to this scenario - but that he is wanting to threaten to push those limits very gently to give you a feeling of heightened anticipation which is surely part of the fantasy.

You say though that you are worried about the effect it could have on your mental state. Reality can be very different from fantasy. Please make sure that this is something you really do want to go through with before you give your consent.

Good luck and please take care.


kirana said...

Truly fascinating discussion here and a lot to think about, consider, and mull over. Thank you for sparking such a thorough and intellectual round of comments and perspectives.


Pygar said...

The thanks are due to you dear toy for giving me the idea for this post.

I am pleased that, like me, you have found the discussion so interesting.

I do hope that you are now recovering well from your accident. Take care


MasterA said...

This is the first time I have logged on to this blog and am very glad I found it!! I have very much enjoyed the back and forth conversations presented here.

I am in a Master/slave (Husband/Wife) relationship and have been for the last 3 years (not all that long but we have been fortunate to learn and grow in this together.) My beauty and I have discussed this a bit and here is what we have come up with (this won't be earth moving or life changing so please feel free to skip this if you are getting bored.)

My beauty is My slave. she has given Me complete control over everything, I say again, Everything. there is nothing in her life that I do not control to include here choices. I own her body and mind completely.

Now, that being said, she did not give this to Me just because I asked for it or demanded it, she gave this over to Me because of the love, trust and devotion we share for each other. I want to make this next part very clear, I WOULD NEVER LEND, GIVE SHARE OR WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT, TO ANYONE ELSE FOR ANY REASON AT ANYTIME.

That being said, I do not think that it is her choice to say no if I wanted to. she gave that to Me a long time ago and she no longer makes those decisions. I think one reason she was able to do that was because she trusted that I would always care for her both physically and mentally. Every relationship is different and in some, the slave will give up those choices knowing that sharing is a possibility and maybe even a probably. A slave giving herself to her Master is obviously no simple thing but once it is done, she no longer has choices and that is the final 'consent' to the Master to do with her as He pleases.

I may be a bit of an extremist in this and I know that there are varying levels of slavery and submission which are worked out long before consent is given. That is what hard limits are for. They take all of the guess work out of the relationship.

I in no way mean to offend anyone, opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and I respect all opinions equally.

I thank you for your blog and the insightful reading it has offered


Pygar said...

Thank you Master A.

Your views are very welcome here. Thank you for your contribution to the debate.

- P