Monday, 28 March 2011

pain and punishment

I have written a number of posts below relating to pain. The one aspect I have perhaps not addressed though is pain in relation to punishment.

It is partly because I have a problem with punishment. Yes - being punished can form part of a play scene - but I would never punish a sub with a beating for instance because she had displeased me. If she felt it would help her to suffer retribution for a misdemeanour then I might be prepared to carry out such a punishment but it would have to be at her request - or even pleading - and only if I judged it would really help her.

So you will have guessed already that I am not into domestic discipline. However I know there are readers of this blog who are part of such relationships. There will be others in different kinds of D/s relationships where pain is used as a punishment for certain behaviours.

But as I have described in other posts below - I want (need?) my sub to gain some satisfaction, fulfilment and even pleasure from pain I administer. Perhaps some subs in a DD relationship will say that they do get satisfaction from a painful punishment.

But therein lies the problem. If one comes to enjoy being punished - then surely it ceases to be a punishment?


mouse said...

You have said what mouse's Daddy has been saying forever. He decided long ago that pain would mostly be for pleasure (his pleasure). Now, if his mouse royally screws up he's not at all above using really intensely painful stuff to correct his mouse. These are not things we normally do. He's also very clever to do other things which remind mouse of her place, which have nothing to do with pain whatsoever.

That said in DD, mouse wonders how often women would intentionally (or even subconsciously) do something to receive punishment. The mindset overall with punishment is different...yet mouse reads some blogs where punishment is the norm of their dynamic -- and it happens sooo often, one must wonder if there isn't something else going on. Daddy would be seriously questioning his ability to lead if mouse couldn't learn from her mistakes.


little monkey said...

Having only just recieved my first pain as punishment this weekend, I am probably not qualified to say, but I will anyway...It was the knowing that it was punishment, deserved retribution in this case, that made the difference. I liked that he did it, punished my wrong doing, but the pain itself did not manage to morph into pleasure as it usually does. Not even close. Will I do it again? Oh Heck no.

nbs said...

If Sir were to punish me for something, I know he would not be physical; we both enjoy the giving/getting of pain too much.

I might have to ask what would happen if he felt I were in need of punishment... but then again~~ why even bring it up?~~!

I do agree that there is no point if one likes the punishment!

Pygar said...

Thank you mouse, littlemonkey and nancy. I think that mouse and nancy seem to agree with me. Though poor littlemonkey has received her first pain punishment this weekend. I hope it was not too harsh.

@littlemonkey It is interesting how the different purpose stopped the pain morphing into pleasure in the way that it usually does for you. You say it was just your knowledge that it was a punishment that made it different. I wonder if also the context changed or how it was administered - or was it completely just your knowledge that it was a punishment that made the difference?

Will it affect the way you perceive pain in the future?


poured out said...

Hmmm... Is it possible to have a cerebral orgasm. I may have just had one (or it's equivalent) today reading this post and your posts on domination, pain and sadism and submission, pain and masochism. Very helpful insight for a newbie.

Thanks for letting me lurk.

Anonymous said...

Lyon is not into pain as punishment; His view on that sounds very much like Yours, Sir. He has said before that if kytten *really* displeases Him, He'd be more likely to deny her privileges of some sort (naps are her favorite thing ever, and she must have permission to take one). For the most part, though, He doesn't have to do this; His displeasure is punishment enough.

Vesta said...

My thoughts on pain and punishment change with the wind. I've been punished with pain and found it incredibly erotic. I think that related to the control I felt rather than the pain itself.

I've been punished with a type of discomfort that I found erotic at the time and as a memory and yet I just wouldn't even *think* of doing the thing that earned me the punishment again in a thousand years.

I agree with mouse and others that a DD situation wherein a woman is punished over and over again seems rather odd, if in fact it is designed to adjust her behaviour. I can't say that I understand that at all unless, of course, it simply pleases the two people involved.

It has been fun at times to be 'punished' for some whimsical misdemeanor that is designed for pleasure/pain/reminder of who is the boss.

On the whole, I dance with the dom in line with carefully learned steps and I stick to them.

This topic is endlessly fascinating to me and I agree that it lends itself to cerebral orgasms just reading this stuff!!

Pygar said...

Thank you Poured Out, kytten and Vesta. It is fascinating reading your own personal perspectives.

All are welcome to lurk here but now that Poured Out has also found the courage to comment I hope she and other lurkers may feel confident to do so again.

And I may have caused cerebral orgasms in two readers! What fun. I am very pleased that readers are enjoying themselves so much.

Have fun

P xx

Unknown said...

To me, it is the knowledge of the fact that it is indeed a punishment that is what makes it different, just like littlemonkey said. Although the activity might be something I normally enjoy, it is not the same when it is a punishment -because in your mind (well, atleast mine) I know I am "paying" for something I've done wrong. Now, Master and I discussed this the other day actually -seeing how much of a painslut I've become =P - if anything will actually be a _punishment_, and I said the same thing to him. I also suggested that we could do non-pain related punishments, but that is another topic.

I don't really see an issue in DD relationships when it comes to punishment -unless of course they keep being punished for _the same thing_ over and over again. And yeah if there are a lot of punishments one can wonder what good the punishments actually do -and in fact if the submissive is actively seeking them. But I don't get that so called 'bratty' style of provoking a punishment -surely it would be better just to ask for what you want instead??

And yes, enjoyment of punishment is no longer a punishment, that is just provocation and response to me. I might feel enjoyment from the activity afterwards (and also relief from repentance) but during the actual punishment it _is_ (and in my eyes _should_) be seen as something unwanted -disappointment from Master always hits harder than the blows though.

Stormy said...

I'm in a DD marriage, and yes..I do get punished. I do not like the spanking, in fact I hate it..but i also hate the lecture about why I am being punished, and how my actions or words hurt our relationship.

Pain is definitely part of the punishment, and a motivator to not repeat the broken rule, etc. But the pain of disappointing him, or letting him down, is very real too.

Pygar said...

Thank you NewToThisLive07 and Stormy.

It is interesting that you both, like others, emphasise not just that pain is not enjoyable when it is in a punishment scenario - but also that the disappointment from your Masters was the most displeasing factor.

Even new painslut NewToThisLife07 has found pain might not be enjoyable from her Master in certain contexts. You mention too the DD dynamic - so thank you very much Stormy for being the first commenter to describe this from the context of a DD relationship. I appreciate it.

P xx

nilla said...

i have only really screwed up once since i was collared...even before that it was rare for me to displease my punishment was immediate suspension of that day's orgasm...full hands off. i had to do the rest of the routine that gets me all horny (nipple clamps, ass plug...what i would call...normal pain...) but without the promise of sexual release afterwards.

an extremely effective punishment!

not "overtly" pain-filled, just a "reminder" of who owns me...


Pygar said...

Thanks for sharing nilla. What a deliciously cruel punishment! We feel your pain ...


P xx

Two and a Half Swedes said...

Just started reading your blog and I love the way you write..

Pygar said...

Thank you Foudroyant Spirits. I love the images on your blog too.

P xx

Anonymous said...

Punishment and reinforcment are certainly classic tools used in behavior modification; however, as your post and the comments it has received show, it isn't always a simple thing.

The chosen punishment has to be undesirable at some level if it is to have the desired effect. If the offending behaviour in itself was pleasurable or reinforcing in some way, then the punishment has to be powerful enough to compete with it. Avoiding the punishment must become preferable to acting out.

The better the dominant understands what motivates his submissive, the easier it will be to choose an effective punishment. For example, while a submissive may enjoy pain, delivered without the context that might usually accompany it could change its effect considerably. For some, knowing know that the pain being delivered is not bringing pleasure to the dominant would be enough. For others, the denial of any sort of physical reward afterwards that might normally follow impact play would drill the point home.

If a subs masochistic needs were not being met, then of course, the dynamic above could be rendered completely ineffective as the pursuit of pain to have that need met would likely interfere.

In short, context will determine whether an action will be viewed as punishment by the recipient.

Pygar said...

Thank you very much SubRosaNoMore for your perspective. I think we are in agreement that the context is all important.

You add an interesting additional factor that in a punishment beating not only may the sub not be gaining pleasure from it - but the Dom may not be either. As you say, this then further removes it from the realm of pleasure for the sub.

There are so many levels to this. Thanks again for your insight.

P xx