Tuesday, 5 February 2013


On an earlier post "new to all this" there was a comment from Kitty who wrote:
... I'm a little late to this post as I am new to your blog, but I can very much relate to this post. As a new sub, I struggle a lot with knowing what my true limits are and when to use my safeword. One side of me thinks, this is not just for him, but for both of us. And, like a previous poster said, if its not fun, it should stop. Another side of me thinks, if I only do things that are fun for me where is the submission in that? If I dont push my limits, how do I grow? Its a delicate balance, I believe. Sir has been amazing in helping me find it.
I am sure I have written about limits before but I was intrigued by the way Kitty presents the dilema. On the one hand,
One side of me thinks, this is not just for him, but for both of us. And, like a previous poster said, if its not fun, it should stop.
But then again ...
Another side of me thinks, if I only do things that are fun for me where is the submission in that? If I dont push my limits, how do I grow? 
Is it, as Kitty says, a delicate balance - or do you come down strongly on one side or the other?


Storm said...

I'm not sure that I come down on either of the presented sides of this question...
For one, while I strongly advocate their use, I don't have a safe word, so utilizing it isn't an option.
I do think that safe words are very much for the Dominants benefit as well as the sub's--and they are only any good if they are actually used when needed.

I think that pushing limits is a very delicate balance of when, how, and why.
If we never push those limits, we don't grow. If we push the wrong ones in the wrong way, and at the wrong time, the consequences can be terrible.

In my life, limits are about where he draws the line--my limits are the ones that he chooses.
Not everything that isn't fun should be discarded as unworthy of experiencing.

Not really sure that I made any sense, or even came close to addressing the question...

Storm said...

Sorry for coming back and taking up space lol. But I did some musing about this, and I have decided that I do come down quite firmly on one side of the issue.

In my opinion, safe words are about preventing harm, and not about ending things when they are no longer fun.

Anonymous said...

To complicate this question further I see even another "limit". I believe she is referring to her personal limits for each situation. Another limit would be one's hard or negotiated limit.

Pygar said...

Thanks lil

You certainly did make sense and it was fascinating seeing you make up your mind and take a position as a result of your ongoing thoughts.

I am like you in that I would advocate safe words but currently don't use them with my sub. However that puts even more responsibility on me as the dominant.

I'm very interested in your thoughts about pushing limits and the possible consequences.

I also like your line, "Not everything that isn't fun should be discarded as unworthy of experiencing."

I am sure many would agree with you that safe words are not about ending a scene when it stops becoming fun ... though if no longer fun I would hope the submissive was still gaining something from the experience.

P xx

Pygar said...

Thanks husdom for the additional complication!!!

However I think it is clarification rather than complication and fits in with lil's thoughts. There is clearly a distinction between not enjoying something in a particular play situation and having it as a hard limit.

Thanks for adding your thoughts.

- P

Anonymous said...

This is my opinion on the matter. I read it and thought carefully. On some level what I do is extremely uncomfortable to me. I am forced to safety out if its too rigorous and there are days where it is. On another level its not the pain so much as the endorphins I am after. I use my hard stop safeword if I am at a point where I have had enough. Once it was excruciating discomfort to the point where I could scarcely breathe.

Another time it was at a point where the fear of the pain made my body react. I was too young at the time to realize submission and masochism wasn't a contest to see who could handle the most pain. Its all about feelings and sensations. Its about YOU and YOUR PARTNER. Not the subbiest sub ever who can take a 12 hour beating with a mace but only after 16 hours of hard core canning.

The best way to tell your personal limit is how you feel when you think about that action. Are you nervous when you imagine camel chucking into on coming traffic? It may be a soft limit. (Something you only do sometimes) Are you happy about throwing hippos? That's probably not a limit. Are you afraid or about to file a restraining order when you imagine stomping elephants? There is your hard limit.

If you decide you want to revisit a limit or try to push yourself I would suggest a stop watch or a timer. Give it about five minutes (that can be a very long time for some activities) and then when the timer goes off make a decision at that point if you want to keep going or if you are done. I have three safe words because I don't always want to stop. Sometimes I just want to slow down (yellow) and there are times I want to stop an activity but not the session (red). But if my body and mind has had enough messing around and I get into a dark place, I stop the activity completely (FOX). Ma'am and I both agree if FOX is ever ignored and I get loose I am calling the police and you better have left town. We have a very strong opinion on ignored safewords.

This is my opinion for kitty.

And this was yet another awesome and intriguing post in this blog! Five stars LOVED IT!

- C

Storm said...

I shall take your expressed interest as an invitation to come back and take up more space. I hope you don't mind.


I think that it is important to push limits. Doing so avoids stagnation and encourages further growth--kind of like forcing a step in evolution.

In the beginning, I had a nicely defined line about "soft" limits and "hard" limits.
Now, for me, there are only hard limits, his hard limits. A soft limit isn't something one would never do--it's something that you explore based on the Dominants interest.

So pushing limits is really about stepping further outside of one's comfort zone and expanding our views and relationships.
As subs, we tend to say that we have xy and z as hard limits, but really, our limits are defined by those of our Dominants.

There are limits that are never meant to be crossed, or even pushed--like involving children.
Those limits define whether we are "kinky" or "sick".

Pushing the comfort zone of "negotiable" limits can enhance our relationships and deepen our connections, or it can have unintended consequences wherein the relationship or the people involved are damaged.
I think that, for the most part, it is very much more about the impact on our minds than it is about what happens to our bodies.

Sometimes we are ready to expand, and sometimes we really aren't' even when we think that we are.

Pushing limits without forethought is where trouble can really arise, (in my opinion) because once we do it, we can't ever take it back.

If my Dominant had brought a woman to our bed 5 years ago, it might have precipitated the end of our relationship. If he did so tomorrow, I might be a bit of a mess for a little while, but we would be fine.

Good consequences of pushing limits are getting closer to each other, taking our relationships to the next level, learning about who we are as individuals and as couples. And it can be just downright exciting and fulfilling.

Bad consequences are creating a rift in the relationship, the result can be mental or physical damage that may or may not be reparable.

In fact, I would say that this is one of those situations where the consequences can be quite the opposite of each other.

I should have probably just gone back to my little corner to ramble--I realize that this is an exceptionally long comment.
Anyways, thank you for the opportunity to come back and ramble about my humble opinions.

Pygar said...

Thank you C. I'm pleased you like the post so much - especially as it stimulated you to write such a well informed post. I like the idea of different safe words for different levels. I do hope you have to use FOX rarely!

P xx

Pygar said...

You are very welcome to come and share your opinions here lil whenever you want.

Your post contrasts interestingly with C's. She talks of three kinds of safe words yet you talk of having moved to just one hard limit - and that being defined by your Dom. In which case if I read you correctly you are saying you have no limits at all - other than those limits that if crossed would be "sick" rather than "kinky".

I actually interpret you as saying that you put total trust in your dominant. That you need no hard limits because you trust him to keep you safe when you push beyond what may once have been limits.

As a Dom though I need to understand how my actions are impacting on a sub. Perhaps C's different levels of safeword are a good way of helping her Ma'am know that.

At the moment my sub and I do not have a safeword system. However we perhaps do not play as intensely as you and C.

Thank you lil for your "ramblings"! Feel free to ramble here again.

P xx

nbs said...

Good post and ensuing conversation! I have limits and safewords which Sir insists upon.
I've never used the "stop" word and maybe twice the "slow down".
We've negotiated and renegotiated limits over three years.
My limits have certainly changed and moved in many ways.
I am Sir's treasure and I know he will cause me no damage.. a term we've discussed many times.

As for "fun".. of course there are times when the "fun" of a moment can be hard to find .. but I've been blessed to always have found some reason and benefit in everything, no matter how difficult.

Thank you for encouraging this discussion!

Desireous said...

Maybe that answer depends on the sub. I mean we all have to decide what is right for us. I tend to agree that you need to push your limits at least a little.

Pygar said...

Thanks nbs - I think when you write, "I am Sir's treasure and I know he will cause me no damage.. you emphasise that aspect which makes so much possible. It is that trust and care which is essential in a good D/s relationship. It makes so much possible.

P xx

Pygar said...

Hello Desirous - so good to have your comment.

I believe you too are right. Though above I am emphasising how trust and a knowledge that a Dominant cares deeply and would never cause harm can give the major responsibility to the Dominant ... the other side to this is that each sub is different as you say. There can be no "right" or "wrong" answer that applies to everyone. We all need to find the answer that is right for each of us in our own relationships.

Thanks and good luck.

P xx

Pygar said...

I received a long email from C that discusses this further - especially the notion of being "limitless". I'm not sure I can summarise the argument well here and it is may not be appropriate to copy it all.

However she argues that it is perhaps not possible to be completely limitless. She summarises her arguments with the following words, "Personally I think a Dom cannot dominate unless there is a submissive who will submit. And a submissive cannot submit unless someone is willing to set boundaries for her to submit to."

What a fascinating and complex area we seem to have got into!

P xx

Kitty for Mr. Woods said...

Sorry for not making it to this post sooner guys! Thanks for linking me Pygar!

Ok so, I tend to agree with Lil, at this point. Just because its not fun doesn't mean it isn't worth experiencing. I still haven't used my safe words. Sir and I had a pretty deep discussion about them recently because we weren't really on the same page. Basically, I don't want to use my safe word, and I feel that for me, they are only to be used if I am experiencing some serious physical pain or numbing and tingling that I can't handle. I also think they can be used for emotional reasons, but I will only use them if I feel like what we're doing is going to cause some serious damage or trauma. We have a slow down word and a stop word, and I haven't used either.

Pygar said...

Thanks for joining in the discussion Kitty.

You've explained the reason you have not used your safe word - but not why you have not used your slow down word.

I wonder - is it that you've never felt a need to slow down or is it almost a matter of pride? Or is it just that you do not feel it appropriate to have a slow down word? Is it that you feel there should be just one word, only to be used in the situations you described?

- P xx

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