Thursday, 15 September 2016


Often discussions on this blog, including some recent ones, seem almost to predispose a loving D/s relationship as being key. I know I often talk about trust and communication as being so important. Also central seems to be an empathy and care for the needs of another. This has often seemed to imply a loving relationship and many commenters are fortunate in having such a relationship within which they can explore their needs safely.

But surely a "loving relationship" isn't really necessary. I have played with friends successfully where we were "just good friends". Yes, trust and understanding have to be built up, but not necessarily love.

It would be unusual nowadays to presume love before a sexual relationship started so is it not just the same for a BDSM or D/s relationship? Cannot BDSM buddies exist in the same way as sex buddies? Perhaps I am stating the obvious but it has recently struck me that some of my discussions on here seemed to imply love as part of what made D/s possible in a serious context. Surely that is not the case?

Or is it that the aftercare needed following an extreme session needs truly loving care? Does love make so much more possible? Is it possible to have a 24/7 non-abusive relationship that is not loving?

Ae you in love with your Dom or your sub? Does it matter?


Misty said...

I've never tried it without love but, I definitely think it's possible. It is even appealing to me. However, I wouldn't be willing to go far with someone that didn't love me.

Pygar said...

Thanks Misty

I wonder what it is hat you find appealing to do it without love? A different dynamic perhaps? An additional frisson with someone where the relationship is just friends...

P xx

Misty said...

Oh, I have a few reasons. :)

I see it being more laid back. With him, I have to talk about my feeling and problems - I have to open myself up - which is really freaking exhausting! I think it would be really nice to play with someone and go on my merry way.

There's also the excitement factor, of course. (Frisson is a new word in my vocabulary, thank you for that.)

I love possibilities.

I want to experience life. If you never try, you'll never know.

And, if he were to find someone else (that wouldn't try to take him away from me or come knocking on our door at two in the morning), it might make me feel...well, the thought of it makes me feel warm and fuzzy...

But (I feel like I should add), we are far away from this actually happening and I might feel differently if it was looking me in the face. :)

Lea said...

For me, love matters. I am in love with my Sir and I don't love (romantically) anyone else.

That being said, I believe that there are lots of different kinds of love, not just purely sexual or purely romantic. I have friends that I love. I have friends that I don't love but could have a respectful relationship with.

I do think D/s is possible without being "in a loving relationship", but I suppose there still needs to be some sort of respectful relationship.

Were I single, I have a close friend who is also in the lifestyle and depending upon the activity, I could see us engaging. But I don't love her romantically or sexually. It is still a loving relationship though.

Misty said...

Oh, good point Lea!

Pygar said...

Thanks Misty for your explanation. That is all really interesting. Interesting
too that you get off on the idea of him playing with someone else.

There was another point from your first post that I wanted to comment on. It was where you said that you wouldn't be willing to go as far with someone who you didn't love. I wondered if that was because there are some things that are so hard you would only do them as an expression of love or whether perhaps you would not feel as safe?

P xx

Pygar said...

Thanks Lea. Yes, I do appreciate your distinctions between different kinds of love and their relevance to this. I suppose that a recognition of some kind of care and consideration and trust may imply a kind of love even though it may not be a romantic love. Maybe it is a matter of degree and a level of trust that is less than this kind of love may be all that is needed for many.

I suppose too that some may play in a party situation where they may be able to put themselves in the power of someone they do not know well as long as there is someone who one trusts who is there supervising to ensure they are ok and that limits are respected.

P xx

willie said...

I think Lea said it all really. I have never imagined my dynamic with anyone else other than my husband. For us it is a 24/7 thing ( or tries to be) and the BDSM portion plays a role for sure. I suppose if I wanted to hypothesize, I might be able to with someone else but there would also have to be a significant history with this person along with the trust etc listed. I would have to feel that this person really KNEW me before I could trust to that level. And yes there would have to be some sort of love between us. Generally speaking though, those who I share a significant history with have a place in my heart.

Of course hypothesizing is one thing, reality a totally different one all together.

Misty said...

Actually, the other person needs to love me. I haven't ever thought about why...

I guess I can't see giving my all to someone who didn't love me. I think, when it comes down to it, I wouldn't be able to trust that they wouldn't leave me on a whim, I need to know they're in it for the long run. Sure, my husband could leave me (it's a risk we all take), but I take comfort in his love. It makes me feel appreciated, accepted, and safe, as well. For that, I want to give my all, and then some.

With love, I do it for him. Without love, I would do it for me, which may not look very different from the outside.

Pygar said...

Thanks willie - and if the reality ever turns out very different from the hypothesising be sure to let us know!

Though your comments resonate in relation to the level of trust and some kind of love.

P xx

Pygar said...

What a great point Misty. It is very illuminating - that it is about the others love for you rather than your love for him. Thank you for sharing that.

Your last sentence too is very insightful. It has made me think.

P xx

Jz said...

It’s unusual, perhaps, to presume love before a sexual relationship these days, but I’m not sure it’s that unusual to presume the hope of it developing into something deeper.
And, at the risk of having my Captain Obvious cape jeered at, I would like to point out that you are a male - a creature known more for compartmentalizing sex and love - and most of us are females. (You know, the ones about whom men always complain because we conflate the two?) So perhaps it’s not really be so surprising that our approaches seem to differ?

I don’t require love, but I do require caring. (Lea’s respect)
Similar to Misty, I need something less casual from a partner. For me, it doesn’t need to be love, but it does need to be more than just, “oh, hi. You’re available - let’s fuck!” (or scene)
I need to feel that he appreciates me, the person I am, not just the body I am housed within.
I’m a whole package, show that you realize that, and that you’re drawn to the whole thing… then whip me, beat me, tie me up, and fuck me.

Pygar said...

I am sure you are right Jz that a higher proportion of men than women do compartmentalise love and sex. That is not always the case however. I am sure all of us in our own way need love and affection and the role sex can play in the development of and expression of that love is uncontroversial.

I think it is also the case though that in western society there are growing numbers who do not see sex and love as inextricably linked and who can enjoy sex for its own sake. Though this was once seen as a particularly male perspective I do think that has changed hugely.

Do you think the level of care, trust and respect you need for a sexual relationship is identical to that you would require for a BDSM or D/s relationship or does one require it even more?

"I’m a whole package, show that you realize that, and that you’re drawn to the whole thing… then whip me, beat me, tie me up, and fuck me."


That sounds almost like an invitation!


Thanks very much for your comment Jz. I hope all is good with you.

P xx

Jz said...

You are certainly correct that gender-based mindsets are changing - and that I am dancing on the edge of stereotyping. On the other hand, I’m not convinced that my statement that men tend to compartmentalize more is the same as saying men don’t want or need love, either. That feels like a bit of an apple-to-orange segue to me. However, we are talking about feelings here and it’s a well-known fact that I suck at those, so perhaps we should just agree that our different life experiences have led us to hold differing views on the question, and move on. :-)

Of course, that leaves me needing to move on to your query - which lands me in another puddle of muddy distinctions…, because my flavor of BDSM is a sexual one. So there isn’t a lot to set the two types of relationship apart as far as requirements go. No matter what umbrella a relationship falls under, the fact remains that I am still handing over my body for use. Thus, my criteria stay pretty much the same across the board..., but more because I don’t see a distinction between the two than from any sense of comparative commitment.

(Did that come anywhere near near to answering your question? Hell Month always leaves me unable to judge my own babble level…)

Pygar said...

Thanks Jz. I don't think that we are so distant in our views on this. Though you may right that on a personal level I may be more able to engage in sex and/or BDSM outside of a potentially loving relationship than yourself. I do take your point about the intimate connection for you and many between BDSM and sex.

I started to wonder though in terms of BDSM activity whether the differences you discuss in terms of male and female could be rather between dominant and submissive. It may be that subs more need love to be part of the relationship than do Doms. To feel secure in giving oneself totally I can imagine that knowing it is a loving relationship enables one to give more and to feel secure in that giving. That might be the case though equally for F/m, F/f and M/m relationships. In all these cases it may be that the sub feels the need for the loving relationship more than the Dom.

Though clearly a dominant also gains from a loving relationship. As Misty wrote, "I wouldn't be willing to go far with someone that didn't love me." I know that submissives may be able to give so much more of themselves within a loving relationship and the dominant clearly benefits hugely from this too.

"Did that come anywhere near near to answering your question? Hell Month always leaves me unable to judge my own babble level…" I think the babble level was just fine Jz! Thanks for taking the time.

P xx