Monday, 16 August 2010


brooke wrote an interesting blog post recently that discussed submission and force.

It got me thinking about Dom's "forcing" their subs into activities. brooke found it exciting at first with her previous owner. She thought of submission as submitting to his will and liked being made to do things that she felt uncomfortable with.

Now though she has a new Master who does not "force" her. She is still doing the same kind of things but no longer "forced".

(I do hope I have got that right brooke?)

It seems to me as if her new relationship is on a different level and that she has a relationship with her Master where she may end up doing things even more extreme - without having to be "forced" because the relationship is right and the trust is there.

I wonder if a sub should ever be "forced", especially if it is crossing a limit. With a Master who one trusts perhaps one can be led gently over a limit without even realising it has happened.

I can remember once in a session with a sub friend I was fingering her. She had on her profile that fisting was a hard limit. That was because a master had tried to do it with her but failed. He told her that she just had to accept the pain. She couldn't so it became a hard limit.

I had four fingers and a thumb inside her. I had been gentle. We were very close to fisting. She was surprised afterwards when I told her how close we were to her hard limit.

So surely domination is not about force but about leadership and supportive control, understanding the needs and fears of ones sub - taking responsibility oneself rather than putting it onto them.

Surely one should never "force" a sub to cross a limit. But to lead them gently across it before they have even noticed ...

... what a delight.


Anonymous said...


Proud Maisie said...

I think sometimes it is the element of force that makes some subs comfortable with their needs/desires. And some enjoy the potential violence of force.

When I sub, I do not wish to be "lead", or supported. I only wish for the dom to know the most effective way of getting inside my head and violating me. (And for them to be entirely trustworthy, of course.)

B'Man said...

"Surely one should never "force" a sub to cross a limit. But to lead them gently across it before they have even noticed ...

... what a delight."

A skill well worth acquiring - and, I'm sure, mutually satisfying.

Sara The Sex Goddess said...

Trust is foremost and limits can't be breached else where does it end? You've got to know someone knows when to stop. Being taken willingly over a previously known limit is something else though but I don't think that classes as 'force' does it?

Florida Dom said...

That was a very good post with a lot of insight. If a sub is treated right, she can find what she thought was a hard limit is a great experience.


nbs said...

How very well put!

Pygar said...

Thank you all very much for the interesting and supportive comments.

It was especially good to hear from Proud Maisie though who says she does not want to be "lead" or supported. She takes the different view that an element of force can actually help some subs feel more comfortable with their needs and desires.

I wonder if this is because it takes responsibility away from them for needs and desires which may cause some guilt. If they have been "forced" then there need be no guilt. They have no responsibility.

But Maisie wants her dom of course to be completely trustworthy. How else could she let him into her head and violate her?

I am not sure though that our views are so far apart. Perhaps it is just our choice of words to describe something similar that separates us.

I wonder if Maisie in wanting a trusted dom to get inside her head and violate her is wanting a thoughtful and sensitive dom, as well as someone who can be forceful and determined, to take her to some special places that she wants to go to. Is that different from being led there in my description?

Both seem different from a sub being forced to do things where the dom takes no account of her needs and desires.

Or have I still got it wrong Maisie? Thank you so much for presenting an interesting alternative view.


Anonymous said...

When I was a child I had a terrible fear of heights and deep water. The day I overcame that fear, I slowly climbed the high diving board at our local pool (which was over the deep end), walked up to the end of the board, closed my eyes and stepped off. I sank to the bottom of the pool, opened my eyes, pushed off from the bottom, and kicked until I reached the surface.

I didn't get there on my own, but had been gently encouraged to have greater faith in my abilities and coached in the weeks leading up to that moment. While the decision to climb that board and walk off was my own, I couldn't have gotten there on my own. And if I'd been ordered to do so, I might have endured it but would never have willingly gone to the pool again.

As it was, I walked back to the ladder, climbed up and did it again, but this time with my eyes wide open and smiling.

The first time I was chained to a ceiling, I was terrified and overwhelmed with anticipation. The Dom in question was very patient with me, and made sure that my experience of each "station" ended on a positive or successful note. This went a long way to helping me overcome a whole host of blocks as a newbie.

I can see a time though when I may want a different sort of experience. As an adult, I like to powerlift for exercise. I love testing myself and sometimes, I've had a barbell get stuck at my knees in the middle of a deadlift. At that moment, I throw my head back, let out a yell and pull like my life depends on it. Most of the time, it works and I crash through what was previously a barrier. The rush from that kind of struggle is amazing. While I'm not there yet in terms of my exploration of D/s, I can foresee a time, when I would be open to that sort of struggle, where you push/are pushed to break through. I do know that a great deal of trust and respect would be needed to risk physical/emotional injury like that, but I can see it would be possible under the right circumstances.

Pygar said...

Thank you SubRosaNoMore

I think you illustrate the issues so well. - That balance between being led carefully and forced to challenge your limits. The struggle ... pushing to break through ... and the trust needed.

You are right about the trust - but I sense you will find it and will stretch yourself into finding places you did not expect to discover.