Thursday, 18 August 2016

enjoyment and submission

I found it really interesting to read the comments to the last couple of posts about spanking. (You can read them here and here.) It was fascinating reading different people's perspective on what worked for them. There were some for whom spanking was a very deep experience which filled a real need and was something they desired.

As Dani wrote, "...need is indeed what one feels. The connection at a base level of humanity. ... Why is the desire so strong?" and "...they can be divine or torture. In the end the outcome is the same, fulfilling a need, want and desire on many levels both physically and mentally."

There were others like Jz who liked them but didn't need them, "It's a liking. I like cookies, too... but I don't need them."

Some though didn't particularly like receiving a spanking but still felt a strong need for one. little monkey wrote, "Yes, I do. The part that I need most is the intention in the mind that drives the hand that strikes. I need that. So much so it borders on desperation at times."

This was developed further by Wilma Rubble who wrote, "... I NEED dominance. In our house, often submitting to a spanking is the ultimate form of submission. Why? Because physically I do not LIKE spankings."

So for some, like Wilma, the need for spanking is to help them feel submissive.

I wonder how much this is the case with lots of BDSM activity. Does a submissive often need not to enjoy the activity in order for it to make her feel submissive. That is the point. If she enjoyed a spanking or another painful or restrictive activity then it would no longer be submissive. The point of it not being a pleasant experience is to help her feel submissive to the needs and desires of another and to feel their dominance in making her do something unpleasant. Does then submission to the will of another imply being prepared to do things or accept things that one does not enjoy, or perhaps actively dislikes, for the pleasure of another or doing it quite simply because they command it, however unpleasant it might be? The stronger the dislike, the greater the feeling of submission.

But many (most? all?) submissives do enjoy BDSM activities. They are fun and fulfilling and help create the dynamic. They can be full of desire and wanting (and, yes, needing too.) They can be playful and fun ... and still within the dynamic. So perhaps a sub can enjoy an activity, revel in it even, and still be submissive.

So is there a contradiction here?

Are you truly submissive if you enjoy all you are commanded to do and all that is done to you?


┼×tefana Cristina Czeller said...

I find that type of submission linked to brain damage. To both parties involved. I can be submissive to a superior intelect or soul, but not to a male who finds a pleasure in my pain. For me, it's on the border of mental illnes.

Pygar said...

Thanks for your view Christina. However the responses to the last two posts showed that there are many who need and/or enjoy another administering pain to them. For that then surely they need someone who likes doing it...

Also I am clear that those responding to the posts are not "brain damaged".


Misty said...

I am...or am I? The age old question no one seems to be able to answer. Lol.

I just said the other day..."I have actually felt that I am selfish...I do it because I like it, I want more because it makes me feel good. I don't do it against my will, even the stuff I don't want to do, I do because I want it."

I think this is the way it's supposed to be though, deep down we should like it, 'cause if we didn't...that wouldn't be heathy.

willie said...

I agree with Misty!

Myself I don't enjoy the physical pain aspect, BUT I enjoy the after effects. I also enjoy the feeling of accomplishment of submitting. Let's not kid ourselves either, there is a real endorphin high that comes from pain. My husband enjoys the results too. So in essence I suppose he enjoys doing it? I mean what benefit would there be if he didn't enjoy it to some degree? It would then be a chore for him, and I would feel like a burden.

I have often questioned if it is really a submissive act if it doesn't 'cost' us something, ie pushing our boundaries, not just physically but mentally too. In fact the greatest growth I ever had was after letting go of control during a social situation, and attending a function I was terrified to. I submitted to what my husband wanted and thought was best, far beyond my comfort zone. Would there have been physical repercussions if I didn't? No. Did either of us know that this act would have had such an impact at the time? No

I will further add on a different note, that to me there has to be a HELL of a lot more outside of the 'play/pain' area as far as requiring my submission goes in order for the physical to actually 'work' in the way it is intended. It augments the D/s relationship but it isn't the whole of it.


Pygar said...

Thanks Misty. It is interesting to see you struggling with the dilemma!

I think you are right that deep down one should like it. There is one thing in particular that my submissive does not like which I do. However in another sense she loves it because she says that nothing else makes her feel so submissive - and that she likes!. Then there are perhaps other things she puts up with because she likes to be giving me pleasure.

If "deep down" she stopped liking it, then I would no longer want to do it.

Thanks again Misty

P xx

Tamar said...

"So perhaps a sub can enjoy an activity, revel in it even, and still be submissive."

Sure they can! I do, pretty much all the damned time. LOL If Q has gone into "that mode" I know it, instantly, it's pretty hard to miss, heh. And if I'm in the mood to respond in kind, I do- sometimes (and after knowing each other for 8 years and living together for 3, he's gotten pretty good at gauging when) he can even push me when I don't think I'm in the mood for that mode, and end up pushing me into it, much to my delight. And I do enjoy it, all of it- love it, revel in it, when he takes control, even *pointed look to the first poster in the comments* when he gets off on hurting me. I am in love with a dominant sadist, so that's part of our relationship, and it puts a nice edge on our play, him getting off on hurting me (with consent, and with the whole SSC and RACK thing, we're both very careful in our play) and me getting off on him getting off on hurting me. It's a lovely circle of getting off that we indulge in when we can (we're not "on" 24/7, having jobs, kids, and vanilla friends precludes that).

If he orders me to do something I really, truly don't want to do when we're in D/s mode (which he doesn't do often- when he is in the mood to 'push me' he'll ask me about it before hand to see if I'm in the mood to play that hard) depending on what it is and how I feel about it, I have the choice of begging out respectfully, or of calling yellow if I need a moment to think about it, or red if there's really no way I can push myself to do it. An example is: if he has me bent over the bed and orders me to take 5 more hard cane strikes after I've already had to call Yellow for a breather after several other hard strikes, I have the choice of nodding and answering "Yes, Sir," taking the strikes even though I may not want them, but in the moment, him wanting them makes me want them, want to take them for him- in that inexplicable subspace where I want to do everything he tells me to, even when I am already hurting and not really wanting more but know I can take it. In that case, I will usually say, "Yes, Sir," and cry and scream and dance around, dealing with the pain, but still loving it because I can take it, want to take it for him and know it'll be good, he'll love it, I'll be proud of myself and all turned on too, and mind-blowing sex will ensue. LOL

In another scenario: if he forgets and asks me to get on my knees, in the heat of a really hot scene, so I can suck his cock, as much as I would want to do that- I have bad knees and even with a pillow under them, I'd be in pain and not the good kind of pain I can take but the bad kind of pain that will have me hobbling around the house for the rest of the night- so I have to reluctantly beg him, "Please, no- Sir- don't think my knees can take it," and he will think of another just as enjoyable but more doable activity instead. I won't force myself to my knees and put myself in a situation where I know I'll be hurting in a way he wouldn't want me to, if that makes sense? I know my limits and am confident enough to remind him when he forgets and he trusts me to do so.

Hope that made sense, think I wandered afar there bit off the topic but it all made sense in my head. LOL

Pygar said...

PS Though there are I think those perhaps who only like it "deep down" and because of the satisfaction of the submissive feeling it gives them.

Pygar said...

Ooops, the PS was a follow up to my last reply to Misty while Tamar was writing. Pxx

Pygar said...

Thank you Tamar. No you didn't wander off topic at all. I think that was a very articulate description and explanation of the D/s relationship in a scene setting. To my mind it was a good example of it working very well.

What I think is particularly good is your paragraph near the end when you write, " I won't ... put myself in a situation where I know I'll be hurting in a way he wouldn't want me to, if that makes sense? I know my limits and am confident enough to remind him when he forgets and he trusts me to do so."

Whilst a Dom must take overall responsibility to keep the sub safe it is really helpful to know that a sub will say if something is not working in the way that the Dom intended. Feedback is so very important.

Great comment Tamar.

P xx

Pygar said...

Ooops, Willie's comment sneaked in as well while we were all writing. More from me soon...

P xx

Pygar said...

Thank you willie, I am so sorry. I had not intended to ignore you. We were all writing at once and I missed your comment!

It is great to have such a balance in the responses that seem to explain all aspects and seem to have so much also in common despite the differences.

There is too the endorphin rush you mention that we have not considered. I think there are many who will put up with a lot of pain because they are seeking the specialness of that high or of sub-space which may well be the same thing.

It is interesting too how you explain that the pain aspect is only a small part of the D/s dynamic.

P xx

SwitchingFun said...

Hi Pygar, just found your blog, great topics, great comments.

As a S&M player, I can say that pain and pleasure can be very different on the scale and perspective for each person. This is where open communications on limits, hidden interests are for, not only for safety reasons but also as guidance on how intense the scene will be and how long.

For my own reference, I keep record for each type of play for each sub, including the aftercare and healing time needed for the marks/bruises. This is to make sure I won't abuse the trust given to me by hurting the subs beyond their body and mind can take.


Pygar said...

Thank you SwitchingFun.

I do agree that pain and pleasure can be very different for each person. There is perhaps a continuum between them and each person will enjoy a different place on that continuum - or scale and perspective as you write.

It is good to have a responsible attitude to subs and ensure one never abuses trust. It is interesting though that you have so many subs that you need to keep notes!

Good luck.


SwitchingFun said...

Ooops, my apology for misleading you regarding the subs.

Yes I play with more than one regular subs for S&M schenes because it takes time to heal apparently, and I prefer the same person to have enough time to enjoy bruises free period before we starting new session. Perhaps my gentle and loving mentor is getting his ways into me after all.

Pygar said...

No apology SwitchingFun. I don't think you were being misleading.

And I am sure it is always good to have a gentle and loving mentor!


Anonymous said...

Great answers!