active vs passive submission

I was reminded of this by a recent post by David in A view from the Top. He wrote of exactly this issue here.

I was sure I had written about this before at least once. However when I looked back I could just find one post of mine that remained in draft, never having been published. It looks still unfinished. I wrote it in February 2008!!!! My thoughts then were:

"Many Dom's expect their subs to be passive. They should not use their initiative but wait to be told what to do. In extreme cases their lives can be micro-managed by their Dom. This can be useful in training situations to emphasise and embed the control of a Master or just as a helpful discipline on occasions. However for much of the time I prefer more active submission. Is it not the purpose of a sub to provide for the pleasure and happiness of their Master? Should they expect to have to be told before knowing that he would like a cup of tea, or to have her display herself gracefully or offer herself for a spanking just in case it should be necessary?"

In response to David's post on this subject I responded with the following:

"Thank you David. "Active vs passive submission." It is a hobby horse of mine. I thought I had written about it and on searching have discovered I did two years ago but it is still in draft! I am afraid I am often too long getting my brain into gear. As a Dom my own personal preference is for active submission. That is not to say that a sub should not be obedient and at times passive - but I am not so interested in that model. I do not want a doormat. I want an intelligent, bright, enthusiastic sub. Surely the role of a sub is to please her Master. Is that not active rather than passive? Perhaps I am just lazy but I do not always take my pleasure through ordering my sub around. Rather I would delight in her constantly searching for ways to please her Master. I have always tried to "train" my subs in that way. It can be difficult to do so. For many subs submission can be an easy way out. No longer do they have to think for themselves - their Master will decide. Submission should not be intellectually easy. A sub should be thoughtful and dedicated to the pleasure of her Master. I am sure she could delight herself in such activity and in doing so give great pleasure to her Master. Yes of course - there is a place for passivity. The Master will take control and direct. It is central to the dynamic. But subs should not neglect the active service in searching for ways to please their Master."

So what do my readers think?

Internal Enslavement

I have just come across this concept recently by chance. There is a webpage here if you want to investigate it further. I don't think there is anything specifically new about it in the theme of D/s. It is just at one end of the notion of control and emphasises the psychological aspect.

I found a fetlife thread about it here. (Sorry non-members may not be able to see it all.)

However, this quote from it seems to sum it up well,

"Internal Enslavement is a particularly intense (OK, that's a controversial word, but I can't think of a better one, "extreme" sounds pretentious) version of the Master/slave/Owner/property dynamic where the Master/Owner uses conditioning techniques to sculpt and change the mind of the property. Some aims of the conditioning may be: Making it psychologically impossible for them to disobey or leave. Helping them to like things the didn't like before. Helping them to get over their psychological issues. Getting them to the point where they center their entire life unthinkingly around the master/owner. Changing all their reactions to "I'm doing this to please my master" to "I'm doing this because it's the way it should be done; was there ever any other way?"

Ideally this is all done in collusion with the slave - i.e. the slave understood and consented in the beginning, and thought that this conditioning was a Good Idea, and willingly went along with it. The process takes years and years; it's not quick and there is usually a long period in the beginning where the slave can bugger off if they change their minds. The conditioning has to be kept up, as the slave can slide out of it if nothing happens for years.

IE is Not For Everyone. It's waaay at the far end of the M/s/O/p dynamic spectrum. The slave has the rights that their owner grants them, and that's all. The owner holds the rights for the slave, because the slave has (after the IE is in place) has no recourse and can't leave unless the owner decides that they can. Again, it's Not For Everyone. Anyone who is made uncomfortable by the idea Should Not Be Doing This."

I suppose there are a number of 24/7 D/s lifestyle practices that are not for me and that I could have some concerns about. But this in particular somehow worries me a bit more.

Perhaps it is the "consensual" part. A sub would enter into this in a consensual way - wanting to be moulded in this way to be a better sub. In that way it is no different from any other D/s model of "slavery". Except for one thing. In any other model a slave in our modern society could tear up her slave contract and walk out having exacted whatever retribution she felt appropriate! (Ouch!!!)

But the whole point of IE seems to be to develop the control in a specifically psychological way. It is conditioning or brain-washing.

Most D/s relationships include development and discovery of finding deeper aspects of submission and domination. There is a journey that many wish to travel together and explore. However that seems different from one person messing with the mind of another in quite a deliberate way to control her. We are messing with each others minds in close relationships all the time - mostly unintentionally.

But perhaps it is just me being too queasy about people wanting to develop a real and true vision of slavery in modern society ...

I'm still queasy about it though.

sadism, masochism and sensuality - revisited

A little while ago I posted a discussion about this as a result of an interesting email I had received. I wrote about it here and also on Uncle Agony here. The comments are also relevant.

I have found this an interesting discussion and was pleased when S wrote at length in response as a blog post here. I wrote my response to S there as a comment.

I will summarise some of the issues here from my point of view but would urge you to read the full text on S's blog. She may see it from a very different perspective.

I think I am having difficulty with the distinction between sensuality and sexuality. When does a sensual pleasure become a sexual pleasure? I believe that some of the things S seeks I would describe as sensual pleasures. Yet she needs to ensure they are not sexual pleasures to maintain her commitment to someone very close to her. I know others who have struggled in this way.

So how can it be resolved?

Is S right - that she can have a close D/s and BDSM relationship without threatening her primary relationship as long as this new relationship is non-sexual? Am I right that such a relationship is as close as a sexual relationship?

Are we both right? Are we both wrong ...

... or perhaps somewhere in between!!!!

Do tell us what you think - either here or on Mind / Body / Spirit

new to submission

t wrote here to Uncle Agony. She is becoming aware for the first time of her submissive nature and desires ... trying to come to terms with them alongside her day to day personality and wondering where next.

I wonder how many readers can think back to when they were trying to come to terms with realisations of their submissive needs and desires and how to meet them? How difficult was it? Was it a shock? Were you frightened or confused? How did you come to terms with accepting the new you? How did those closest to you?

spanking and depression

I have written about depression and submission before here.

However I have received an email about spanking and depression which I have published on the Uncle Agony blog here. I hope some of you may visit and add helpful comments.

However it got me thinking about another aspect. I wondered if the act of receiving a spanking - or even a different kind of beating or serious BDSM pain - could act as an antidote to depression? Can the endorphins released in such activities act relieve depression? Is it better than prescription medication? Does the closeness inherrent in such activity provide an effective emotional support that can help alleviate depression?

I would be interested in the views of subs and Doms about this.

Is sensuality too vanilla?

I suppose this is linked to my last post but was inspired from a different place. I was commenting on another blog - forgive me I have lost the link now even though it is a rare activity for me! The blogger seemed to have lost her desire for sex though she still craved BDSM activity. Her use of rubber and latex seemed to be almost as much a barrier to prevent skin to skin contact as a sensual fabric in its own right.

In my comment I mentioned the delight of sensual erotic massage. She responded that she did not enjoy that as it was "too vanilla".

I see sensuality as a continuum across BDSM, fetish and vanilla and am happy to embrace all of its aspects. Though what about my readers? Do you find some sensual activity too vanilla to be fun? And where does one draw the line? If I tied her up before the erotic massage would that make it okay?

sadism, masochism and sensuality

Uncle Agony recently received an email asking for advice. The question is published here so please do comment there if you have any thoughts.

It got me thinking though about sadism, masochism and sensuality. I read a post on a message board recently that was arguing strongly that if you were into BDSM activity it should not matter whether your partner was male or female whether you were top or bottom. It argued that BDSM was about control, D/s and the administration of pain; that sex or sensuality was something completely different to be kept apart.

S, who has written to Uncle Agony would have some sympathy with this in their own case. S is not interested in sex, sensuality or fetish in this context - but finds that it seems to be inextricably linked in most places, perhaps especially the fetish aspect. I have tried to reassure S that there are many who share these feelings. It got me to wondering whether that was the definition of a sadist or masochist. It could be just the pleasure in administering or receiving pain with no regard for relationship, feelings, sensuality or sex. In such cases if it was just the administration or receipt of pain that was important. It would not matter much who the partner was as long as issues of safety had been taken into account.

I confess for myself I find that difficult but am struggling to accept it. I know someone who I care about was beaten recently by someone who describes himself as a sadist. She enjoyed it very much. If it had been me I would have beaten her with love and consideration for how the scene was going for her. But perhaps she and others wish to remove such activity from the realm of affection and personal relationships.

For me sensuality is inextricably linked with BDSM play. It is what makes it so delicious. But it would be a boring world if we all had the same needs and desires.

Links

I am very aware that my links list is out of date - there are many that are no longer active. Whereas there are other people who comment regularly on here and yet more who link to me who I have not linked to. I would like to link back to friends.

I will try to rectify this soon. So do let me know if you would like a link from me. To help does anyone know of a simple Blogger gadget I can use which will identify blogs that link here? Or any other suggestions?!?!

absent ...

I'm away for a few weeks but will be back here on my return. In the meantime do feel free to look at earlier posts and comment. I love reading all you have to say.

subdrop

Ok - I don't understand it properly. I'm a man and a Dom. I've not experienced it.

Trying to intellectualise it I guess there are different components. One may be almost chemical. The endorphins flooding the body during a session suddenly taken away at the end of it - perhaps causing a withdrawal affect like coming off drugs. Another perhaps emotional. That closeness, trust, use, care, physical contact also withdrawn. A physical reaction too. The body responding to punishment - trying to shut down unessential functions to concentrate on recovery and also to cope with pain. Perhaps also a psychological response. The contradiction between loving care and the administration of pain. How does the mind respond to such contradictions in trying to come to terms with them?

But I've never experienced it. I've never seen it as it happens. I've had it described to me - as if I do understand it.

But I don't.

So ...

... okay subs. Have I got it right? How is it for you?

force

brooke wrote an interesting blog post recently that discussed submission and force.

It got me thinking about Dom's "forcing" their subs into activities. brooke found it exciting at first with her previous owner. She thought of submission as submitting to his will and liked being made to do things that she felt uncomfortable with.

Now though she has a new Master who does not "force" her. She is still doing the same kind of things but no longer "forced".

(I do hope I have got that right brooke?)

It seems to me as if her new relationship is on a different level and that she has a relationship with her Master where she may end up doing things even more extreme - without having to be "forced" because the relationship is right and the trust is there.

I wonder if a sub should ever be "forced", especially if it is crossing a limit. With a Master who one trusts perhaps one can be led gently over a limit without even realising it has happened.

I can remember once in a session with a sub friend I was fingering her. She had on her profile that fisting was a hard limit. That was because a master had tried to do it with her but failed. He told her that she just had to accept the pain. She couldn't so it became a hard limit.

I had four fingers and a thumb inside her. I had been gentle. We were very close to fisting. She was surprised afterwards when I told her how close we were to her hard limit.

So surely domination is not about force but about leadership and supportive control, understanding the needs and fears of ones sub - taking responsibility oneself rather than putting it onto them.

Surely one should never "force" a sub to cross a limit. But to lead them gently across it before they have even noticed ...

... what a delight.

decisions

"What do you want to do today?"

It is a reasonable question is it not?

"Whatever you wish to do Sir," I suppose is a reasonable answer for some. It is showing dereference to the Master for him to decide. Many subs also do not want to decide. That is why they have taken the submissive role - so that they do not have to make decisions. It releases them from the stress of the decision making process. They value the strength of their Master in being the one to take decisions for them.

"What do you want to do today?"

I think it is a reasonable question and demands a proper answer. It may be that in all truth the sub has no particular view on it and can say so.

It may genuinely be that she desires the pleasure of her Master and wants to do whatever will give him pleasure. But he did ask what she wanted to do. It may be that it will give him pleasure to know they are doing something that his sub will enjoy and not doing something that is boring her or is distasteful to her. He may need the information to enable him to make the final decision about what they do today.

"What do you want to do today?"

So I think the question deserves a truthful answer after which the Master can decide what they will do.

But it has got me wondering in general about decision making and whether it is always in a sub's best interests to be let off the hook as it were in decision making. One of the delights for a Dom in such a relationship is often the level of control - that he makes the decisions. Subs do delight in the reverse, in being controlled and having decisions made for them. But are there not times in the real world - and in the D/s part of it too - where it is right for a Dom to expect his sub to make decisions?

mutual masturbation

A friend on a bdsm contact site recently removed "mutual masturbation" from her list of fetishes.

When I was talking with a different sub friend recently she talked of how personal it could be. She was talking not of masturbating each other but for each alongside to masturbate together. She described it as such a private act that for each to do it together, sharing it - it became a very personal and intense activity.

I'm not sure I want to masturbate alongside her ... but it made me think what fun it would be to have her masturbate constantly while I played with her. To have her perform that very special, personal act just for me. Of course done insensitively it could be a disaster. But if the dynamic was right ... ?

We may never meet again - but having thought of this then perhaps I should try to ensure we do meet again!

pleading prettily

I was reminded about this today through an online conversation with a sub friend. It is a phrase I have used occasionally with subs in an almost a joking way. Though I have had some difficulty I must admit in getting previous subs of mine to plead as prettily as I would wish. Either I have far too high standards or have had subs of an inferior quality! (That is intended as a joke. I am still fond of all of the women who have submitted to me and they have my genuine respect.)

I can imagine some Doms not liking pleas from their subs. Perhaps it could seem to some like whining. (I certainly do not like that.) Others may see it as topping from the bottom. However I want to know the needs and desires of my sub. If she has in mind something she would enjoy and wants to try to persuade me then it could be that I may find I enjoy it too.

Also if the pleading becomes very persuasive in delightfully sensual and erotic ways then why should I complain? I have always said that submission should be active rather than passive.

So my dear subs ... you now know how to get round me - as long as you plead prettily enough!

love and affection

I have just posted a new query on Uncle Agony. If you have any thoughts please do add a comment there.

It got me thinking about the emotional intensity of D/s relationships. In my own experience even online relationships can become very intense very quickly.

Rather than Doms having no feelings for their subs and an inability to love as has been suggested there, I find the opposite. There is something so very special about the act of submission. There is a great power in that precious gift such that I then feel a need to nurture and care for the sub who has given herself to me so fully. It is a huge responsibility and surely cannot be carried out properly without affection, care, trust, respect ... and yes, love.

I cannot imagine not feeling some love for a woman who gave herself to me so totally.